Cross-section for interference among SM and dim-6 operator doesn't match at LO and NLO

Asked by matteo maltoni

Dear MG5 experts,

I generated the interference among the O_W dim-6 operator (SMEFTatNLO) and the SM for the following process:

generate p p > l+ vl a QCD=0 QED=3 NP^2==2 @0
add process p p > l- vl~ a QCD=0 QED=3 NP^2==2 @1
add process p p > l+ vl a j QCD=1 QED=3 NP^2==2 @2
add process p p > l- vl~ a j QCD=1 QED=3 NP^2==2 @3

interfaced with Pythia8, and I got the following cross-section results, after the cuts:

SM LO: 47 fb
Interf LO 0jets: -1 fb
Interf LO 0+1jets with MLM: -7 fb
Interf LO 0+1jets without MLM: -5 fb

After this, I generated the same process at NLO, again with Pythia8:

generate p p > l+ vl a QCD=0 QED=3 NP^2==2 [QCD] @0
add process p p > l- vl~ a QCD=0 QED=3 NP^2==2 [QCD] @1
add process p p > l+ vl a j QCD=1 QED=3 NP^2==2 [QCD] @2
add process p p > l- vl~ a j QCD=1 QED=3 NP^2==2 [QCD] @3

getting the following results:

SM NLO: 59 fb
Interf NLO 0jets: 20 fb
Interf NLO 0+1jets with FxFx: 51 fb
Interf NLO 0+1jets without FxFx: 73 fb

It seems that the interference results are a bit far away from the previous ones, and indeed when I ran the last sample with order=LO, without any merging as FxFx is not available at LO, I got results that don't match with the LO sample ones:

Interf LO 0jets: 16 fb
Interf LO 0+1jets without merging: 41 fb

The cuts are the same for all the generations, both at partonic and python analysis level: pT cut at 80 GeV for the lepton and 150 GeV for the photon, MET above 40 GeV and minimum angular distance of 0.7 among photon and lepton.
The Qcut is the same as well. As the difference is already evident for the 0jet case, the issue doesn't seem to be related to merging; also, the dim-6 operator should only affect the EW part of the SM.

As a comparison, I generated the same process at fixed-order, and the results seem to agree with the first LO case:

SM LO: 47 fb
SM NLO: 51 fb
Interf LO 0jet: -1 fb
Interf LO 0+1jets: -7 fb
Interf NLO 0jets: -9 fb

Do you know what might cause this difference? I'll paste below the banner for the NLO run, let me know if you need to see the ones from the other generations as well, or if you need more info in general.

Best,

Matteo

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Question information

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Solved by:
matteo maltoni
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Revision history for this message
Olivier Mattelaer (olivier-mattelaer) said :
#1

Hi,

I would say that the MLM results are already bad and should not be trusted.
In principle, the cross-section should not change by a factor of 7 when using MLM.
If MLM is working correctly then the cross-section should stay -1.

Since this is not the case, one needs to understand why this is not the case which likely means that madgraph consider the 1j sample as impossible to be generated from the zero jet by the parton-shower.

This being said 0+1j without MLM (or FxFx at NLO) does not make any sense and therefore, are quite irrelevant.
The only interesting point here is to see that the double counting is mainly happening for the positive contribution and not the negative one since the cross-section becomes more negative.

Now one thing that is not clear from your post is what is the statistical/systematical error on all those numbers.
If you do have statistical or systematical error larger than 700% then yes this is possible (but not predictive)

Cheers,

Olivier

Revision history for this message
matteo maltoni (matteo-maltoni) said :
#2

Hi Olivier,

Thank you for you reply!

I'm not sure the difference in cross-section of a factor 7 is only due to MLM, since those two numbers come from different processes: W-photon with 0 jets and W-photon with 0+1 jet.

The extra jet is opening new channels, and this should explain the large increase. At least, this is what I've been thinking so far...

> The only interesting point here is to see that the double counting is mainly happening for the positive contribution and not the negative one since the cross-section becomes more negative.

How can I check this?

Also, in order to check the statistical uncertainties on those numbers, I should compute them separately on the positive and negative contributions to the interference, but here there are also negative weights coming from virtual corrections... How do I deal with these two sources of negative weights?

Best,

Matteo

Revision history for this message
Olivier Mattelaer (olivier-mattelaer) said :
#3

At this stage I would only check MLM and forget everything about FxFx.

> The extra jet is opening new channels, and this should explain the large
> increase. At least, this is what I've been thinking so far...

The new channels are a_S suppressed and most of the diagrams can be seens as QCD radiation.
What you do have is the presence of a couple of diagram which are "not" a QCD radiation but rather a EW radiation on top of a QCD diagram. So those 8 diagrams will be consider as contribution appearing from the 1j.
But if those couple of diagrams are so large, then this raise question no?

In principle in the lhe you should be able to identify event with 1j but consider as new contribution (event that do not have a dedicated scale for the jet).
Can you check the importance of that contribution?

Olivier

> On 24 Oct 2023, at 12:45, matteo maltoni <email address hidden> wrote:
>
> Question #708277 on MadGraph5_aMC@NLO changed:
> https://answers.launchpad.net/mg5amcnlo/+question/708277
>
> Status: Answered => Open
>
> matteo maltoni is still having a problem:
> Hi Olivier,
>
> Thank you for you reply!
>
> I'm not sure the difference in cross-section of a factor 7 is only due
> to MLM, since those two numbers come from different processes: W-photon
> with 0 jets and W-photon with 0+1 jet.
>
> The extra jet is opening new channels, and this should explain the large
> increase. At least, this is what I've been thinking so far...
>
>> The only interesting point here is to see that the double counting is
> mainly happening for the positive contribution and not the negative one
> since the cross-section becomes more negative.
>
> How can I check this?
>
> Also, in order to check the statistical uncertainties on those numbers,
> I should compute them separately on the positive and negative
> contributions to the interference, but here there are also negative
> weights coming from virtual corrections... How do I deal with these two
> sources of negative weights?
>
> Best,
>
> Matteo
>
> --
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matteo maltoni (matteo-maltoni) said :
#4

After discussion with Olivier and the authors of the SMEFTatNLO model, we've been able to solve the issue. Here's some important things we've found out.

At LO+PS: among all the weights that are stored in the hepMC file, only the ones with "MERGING" in their tag should be used to compute the cross-section. The event.wgt and all the others are copy-pasted from the lhe file, so they don't take into account all the merging and PS effects

At NLO+PS: the NP^2==2 flag is automatically reinterpreted as NP^2<=2 (the MG5 authors have been informed), so the SM is also computed, together with the BSM interference. Each generated event's weight is the sum of these two contributions, but it is also possible to access them separately in the lhe and hepMC files. For example, using the SMEFTatNLO model, they have tags that go as QED*10000+QCD*100+NP*1, similarly to the orders_tag_plot in fixed-order computations, so all weights whose tags end by "0" are SM ones, while the ones ending by "2" are interference ones. These tags might change according to the model, but their meaning should always be summarised in the lhe file, after the cards.

Please Olivier, correct me if anything's wrong in what I wrote.

Cheers,

Matteo