GNU Mailman

line breaks within paragraphs

Asked by Sekhar Ramakrishnan

I am a pretty ignorant user of Mailman, though I have administered a Mailman list (version 2.1.23) for 15 years now. I would like to fix the unseemly splitting of paragraphs at 75 characters. To give an example, here is one from my post to the list (a quote from nytimes):

The error involved Uber’s taking its commission on fares that included sales tax, rather than on the pretax portion of the fare. If, for instance, a passenger paid $20 for a ride, and if taxes accounted for roughly $2 of that fare, Uber took its commission on the entire $20, rather than on $18.

The paragraph appears in our archive (and in emails to list members) as:
The error involved Uber’s taking its commission on fares that included
sales tax, rather than on the pretax portion of the fare. If, for instance,
a passenger paid $20 for a ride, and if taxes accounted for roughly $2 of
that fare, Uber took its commission on the entire $20, rather than on $18.

Googling, I found a Mark Sapiro comment from February 2007:
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2007-February/055879.html
At least in some cases, the problem is the original message is sent as
RFC 3676 format="flowed". In this format, the sending MUA creates
'paragraphs' and arbitrarily wraps lines at space characters leaving
trailing spaces in wrapped lines to indicate they should be joined to
the following line. The receiving MUA is supposed to rejoin the flowed
lines and then wrap them to its own display width, but Mailman, in the
process of adding message header and/or footer, and in the process of
scrubbing (if scrub-nondigest is Yes), removes the format="flowed"
parameter from the Content-Type: header, so the receiving MUA thinks
the format is "fixed".

I am currently testing a fix for this problem. See the bug report at
<https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1495122&group_id=103&atid=100103>
for further information and a patch.
--
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
------------------------------------------
The sourceforge link didn't go anywhere. I was not able to find anything else online relevant to this. I wonder if you can advise me on how I can avoid the line breaks. If I should change some setting in the mail client, e.g., gmail in my case, that will be fine as well, and I can advise list members on what they should do to avoid the unseemly line breaks.

Our list is http://insaf.net/mailman/listinfo/foil-l_insaf.net

Thanks very much. Sekhar

Question information

Language:
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Status:
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GNU Mailman Edit question
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Solved by:
Mark Sapiro
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Revision history for this message
Mark Sapiro (msapiro) said : 		#1

The sourceforge tracker was migrated to Launchpad several years ago. Since that time, the sourceforge tracker has been reorganized. The link you quote redirects to the current link <https://sourceforge.net/p/mailman/bugs/1135/> when I go to it, but in any case, the current launchpad location for the report is <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/266341>.

That said, your list appears to be on Mailman 2.1.23 and the referenced bug was fixed in Mailman 2.1.10. In order to further diagnose your issue I need to know if the wrapping occurs only in the archives and in plain format digests or if it also appears in MIME format digests and individual messages to list members. I would also like to see a complete raw message as received from the list with this issue.

The wrapping could occur in one of several places including the original sender's mail client or the recipient mail client or possibly in Mailman, but I need to see messages in order to begin to know where.

Revision history for this message
Sekhar Ramakrishnan (sekharcu) said : 		#2

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sekhar Ramakrishnan <email address hidden>
Date: Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 9:49 AM
Subject: Walmart Punishes Workers for Medical Absences
To: foil-l <email address hidden>

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/06/01/business/walmart-
workers-sick-days.html
http://www.abetterbalance.org/pointingout/
http://www.abetterbalance.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/6.
2.17_Pointing-Out-Release_FINAL-w-logo.pdf
contain the material below. Not below is the full report from A Better
balance:
http://www.abetterbalance.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/
Pointing-Out-Walmart-Report-FINAL.pdf

Sekhar

        NY Times June 1, 2017

        Walmart Is Accused of Punishing Workers for Sick Days

Katie Orzehowski said Walmart did not accept doctors’ notes and
hospitalization records to excuse her missed shifts during a pregnancy that
ended in a miscarriage.
A workers’ group said Walmart routinely refused to accept doctors’ notes,
penalized workers who need to take care of a sick family member and
otherwise punished employees for lawful absences.

        By RACHEL ABRAMS

A report released Thursday by a workers’ advocacy group says Walmart, the
nation’s largest private employer, routinely refuses to accept doctors’
notes, penalizes workers who need to take care of a sick family member and
otherwise punishes employees for lawful absences.

The report, based on a survey of more than 1,000 employees, accuses Walmart
of violating the Americans with Disabilities Act and the Family and Medical
Leave Act, among other worker-protection laws. The group argued in a
lawsuit filed last month, and in an earlier complaint with the Equal
Employment Opportunity Commission, that Walmart discriminated against
pregnant workers.

“Walmart should fully comply with the law so that no one is illegally
punished for a disability-related absence or for taking care of themselves
or a loved one with a serious medical condition,” said Dina Bakst, a
founder and president of A Better Balance, the advocacy group that prepared
the report.

Walmart said that it had not reviewed the report but disputed the group’s
conclusions, and said that the company’s attendance policies helped make
sure that there were enough employees to help customers while protecting
workers from regularly covering others’ duties.

“We understand that associates may have to miss work on occasion, and we
have processes in place to assist them,” Randy Hargrove, a spokesman for
Walmart, said. The company reviews each employee’s circumstances
individually, he said, “in compliance with company policy and the law.”

Katie Orzehowski says her miscarriage last fall almost cost her a job.

A cashier at the Walmart in North Huntingdon, Pa., Ms. Orzehowski said she
tried to use doctors’ notes and hospitalization records to excuse her
missed shifts, to no avail. Worried that another absence would get her
fired, she went back to work.

“I still had a lot of bleeding going on, and that’s embarrassing,” Ms.
Orzehowski, 26, said.

Her account is one of dozens included in the report, which clashes with the
company’s recent efforts to project a more worker-friendly image.

Walmart has long been known for its penny-pinching attention to detail and
its opposition to organized labor. But in the past couple of years, the
company has announced that it would raise its minimum wage to $10 an hour
and has pledged to invest heavily in training and paying workers.

Workers’ advocates have expressed skepticism about the retailer’s
commitment to improving the lives of its more than one million employees.
Around the same time that Walmart lifted wages, it cut merit raises and
introduced a training program that could keep hourly pay at $9 an hour for
up to 18 months.

In November, A Better Balance filed a complaint with the employment
commission on behalf of Arleja Stevens, a Walmart employee who said she was
fired after missing too many shifts because of complications from her
pregnancy.

In that filing, the group accused Walmart of violating the Americans with
Disabilities Act and the Pregnancy Discrimination Act. The employment
commission is investigating the accusation, Ms. Bakst said.

Mr. Hargrove said the company disagreed with Ms. Stevens’s claims.

A Better Balance also participated in a separate lawsuit last month
alleging that Walmart discriminated against pregnant employees

The company has disputed the claims of the two women at the center of the
suit.

A Better Balance wrote the survey questions used for Thursday’s report. The
questions asked employees whether they believed that Walmart had a problem
of regularly punishing people for absences relating to an illness or
disability, and about how the company treated absences. The group worked
with the labor group OUR Walmart, which promoted the survey to workers who
listed Walmart as their employer on Facebook, according to Andrea
Dehlendorf, a director of OUR Walmart.

“Although this system is supposed to be ‘neutral’ and punish all absences
equally, along the lines of a ‘three-strikes-and-you’re-out’ policy, in
reality, such a system is brutally unfair,” the report says of Walmart’s
absence-control policy. “It punishes workers for things they cannot control
and disproportionately harms the most vulnerable workers.”

Walmart assigns disciplinary points for unexcused absences and other
infractions. Nine points in a six-month period can result in an employee’s
being fired, according to a copy of the company’s absence policy reviewed
by The New York Times. New employees may be fired for accruing four points
in their first six months.

While Walmart has written guidelines for how managers and supervisors
should respond to employees who need help because of medical issues, those
policies are not always followed, according to the report.

“They just straight up tell you, ‘We don’t accept excuses,’” said Ms.
Orzehowski, who still works for the company.

In a follow-up email, Mr. Hargrove said that the company did “not have any
information that would support that Ms. Orzehowski advised us of a medical
reason for her absences.”

“If that were the case, she could have used those medical records to apply
for a leave or accommodation,” he said.

The Americans with Disabilities Act requires businesses with 15 or more
employees to make reasonable accommodations for disabled workers. In 2008,
the definition of a disabled worker was expanded, to include temporary
medical conditions like complications relating to a pregnancy.

The Family and Medical Leave Act protects eligible workers — those who have
been employed for 12 months at a company with 50 or more employees — who
need to take time off to care for themselves or a family member.

Under the A.D.A., employers must work with employees to determine if
workers are eligible for such accommodations. Dismissing doctors’ notes or
otherwise refusing to consider the reason for a worker’s absence could
potentially be “skirting the analysis” in which employers are required to
engage, according to Michelle Caiola, the director of litigation for
Disability Rights Advocates, a nonprofit group, and a former senior trial
lawyer for the E.E.O.C., which enforces federal worker protections.

“A company as big as Walmart, it’s surprising that they don’t have the
appropriate training for the personnel that would be overseeing these sorts
of leaves,” Ms. Caiola said.

Mr. Hargrove said that the company had worked with “countless” employees to
successfully authorize their absences from work.

        http://www.abetterbalance.org/pointingout/

        Report: “Pointing Out: How Walmart Unlawfully Punishes Workers for
Medical Absences”

        June 1, 2017

Executive Summary:

Walmart is proud of its heritage as a family-founded company. Ironically,
while the Walton family touts its family values, Walmart’s absence control
program punishes workers who need to be there for their own families.
Walmart disciplines workers for occasional absences due to caring for sick
or disabled family members and for needing to take time off for their own
illnesses or disabilities. Although this system is supposed to be
“neutral,” and punish all absences equally, along the lines of a “three
strikes and you’re out” policy, in reality such a system is brutally
unfair. It punishes workers for things they cannot control and
disproportionately harms the most vulnerable workers.

Punishing workers for absences related to illness or disability is not only
unfair, it’s often against the law. Based on our conversations with Walmart
employees as well as survey results of over 1,000 current and former
Walmart workers who have struggled due to Walmart’s absence control
program, Walmart may regularly be violating the federal Family and Medical
Leave Act (FMLA) by failing to give adequate notice to its employees about
when absences might be protected by the FMLA and by giving its employees
disciplinary points for taking time to care for themselves, their children,
their spouses or their parents even though that time is covered by the FMLA.

Similarly, we allege that Walmart’s policies and practices of refusing to
consider doctors’ notes and giving disciplinary points for
disability-related absences is a violation of the Americans with
Disabilities Act (ADA). The ADA protects workers with disabilities from
being disciplined or fired because of their disabilities. It also requires
employers to engage in a good faith interactive process to determine an
appropriate accommodation for workers with disabilities. Unfortunately, as
detailed in this report, this is too often not Walmart’s practice. Other
federal, state and local laws such as pregnancy accommodation protections,
and sick time laws, could also be at play. Walmart’s policies and practices
are not in compliance with many of these laws.

Simply put: Giving a worker a disciplinary “point” for being absent due to
a disability or for taking care of themselves or a loved one with a serious
medical condition is not only unfair, in many instances, it runs afoul of
federal, state and local law.

We call on Walmart not only to follow the law, but to work with its
employees who have occasional absences related to health and disability.
Walmart can do better, and Walmart must do better. Workers and the
advocates standing with them will not stop pushing until Walmart treats its
workers fairly.

Read our press release here.

http://www.abetterbalance.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/6.
2.17_Pointing-Out-Release_FINAL-w-logo.pdf

        FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Friday, June 2, 2017

CONTACT Melanie Fonder Kaye, 212-430-5982 <(212)%20430-5982>,
<email address hidden>

        A Better Balance “Pointing Out” Report: Walmart Illegally Punishes
Employees for Time Off

Advocates call on Walmart to comply with law, change policies and practices
so no worker is fired for medical absences

NEW YORK - Walmart’s absence control program—a point system—unjustly, and
in some cases, illegally, punishes workers for absences, according to a new
A Better Balance report released today. Drawing on the real stories of
Walmart workers around the country, the “Pointing Out” report shines a
light on the devastating effects of the system. The report comes on the
heels of a charge of discrimination filing, which alleges that the absence
control program violates federal law.

In April and May, A Better Balance and OUR Walmart surveyed more than 1,000
current and former employees about their experiences with sick time at
Walmart. The responses reinforced how difficult Walmart’s point system
makes life for workers, and that Walmart’s policies and practices,
including giving points for serious medical and disability-related
absences, penalizing workers who need time off for caregiving for ill
family members, and refusing to consider doctors’ notes, are consistent and
widespread throughout the country.

Disproportionately low-wage and women of color, these workers and their
stories all too often go unheard by policymakers, the media and the public
at large. The report centers on their experiences—the most powerful call
for advancing change at Walmart and across the country—and discusses the
federal, state, and local laws, such as the Family and Medical Leave Act
(FMLA) and the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), that protect workers
from being pushed out of work merely for needing some time off.

“As the retail industry leader, in 2017, it’s simply unacceptable that
Walmart routinely punishes its workers for absences that should be excused
by law,” said Dina Bakst, Co-Founder and Co-President of A Better Balance.
“We are not going to let them get away with these brutally unfair and
discriminatory practices.”

Last November, A Better Balance filed a class- based “pattern and practice”
charge of discrimination with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission
(EEOC), alleging that Walmart’s strict and punitive absence control program
unlawfully pushes employees out of work because of a refusal to consider
doctors’ notes or provide exceptions to its policy for absences related to
medical issues and disabilities.

Based on conversations with Walmart employees, A Better Balance has learned
that Walmart regularly gives its employees disciplinary points for taking
time to care for themselves, their children, their spouses or their
parents, despite that time being covered by the ADA, FMLA, or other state
and local laws. Worker’s experiences also illustrate that Walmart regularly
violates the notice requirements of the FMLA.

With 2.3 million employees around the world and total revenue of close to
$486 billion in the most recent fiscal year, Walmart is the world’s largest
company by revenue and the world’s largest private employer. In the United
States, Walmart is the largest private employer with 1.5 million associates
in 5,332 stores. Walmart can have particular significance in rural areas,
where there may be few other jobs available.

Despite its tremendous resources, Walmart maintains punitive policies and
practices that destabilize employees’ lives and push them out of work when
they need a paycheck the most. Because Walmart is so large, it often sets
the standard for the entire retail industry.

“Pushing for change at Walmart can lead to broader reforms for all retail
workers,” said April Bartlett, a leader of the organization OUR Walmart.
“That’s why we call on Walmart not only to follow the law, but to publicly
commit to create policies around health- and disability-related absences
that are clear and transparent, train managers on properly classifying
medical absences, and create a more predictable scheduling process. Walmart
can—and must—do better.”

The report follows a class action lawsuit brought against Walmart earlier
this month by two former employees who faced pregnancy discrimination. The
lawsuit claimed that the retail giant failed to provide thousands of
pregnant workers on-the-job accommodations. A Better Balance, National
Women’s Law Center, Mehri & Skalet, and Sedey Harper & Westhoff filed the
complaint on behalf of the employees in the U.S. District Court for the
Southern District of Illinois.

A Better Balance is a national legal advocacy organization dedicated to
promoting fairness in the workplace and helping workers meet the
conflicting demands of work and family. Follow on Twitter at
@ABetterBalance and on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/ABetterBalance.

Revision history for this message
Sekhar Ramakrishnan (sekharcu) said : 		#3

Thanks very much Mark for the prompt response, and I hope I am proceeding
correctly by replying to your email (you probably noticed multiple emails
from me yesterday as I was floundering around different websites).

As you know, gmail suppresses from the Inbox messages sent to oneself, even
those that were sent to lists. So I have below what my Sent Folder has,
what the list archive has, and what a list member got (me under a different
gmail address). I could have bcc'd you in my post to the list, but I wasn't
sure if that was appropriate. I can also show you how the message looks in
a digest, but that is on a different computer - is it ok if I forward that
to the launchpad address?

You asked for a complete raw message as received from the list. I am taking
the liberty of forwarding the message from my second gmail address, and
also from my Sent folder, to the launchpad address. I trust that is ok.

Thanks again and regards, Sekhar

From Sent folder:
A report released Thursday by a workers’ advocacy group says Walmart, the
nation’s largest private employer, routinely refuses to accept doctors’
notes, penalizes workers who need to take care of a sick family member and
otherwise punishes employees for lawful absences.

What Was Received:
A report released Thursday by a workers’ advocacy group says Walmart, the
nation’s largest private employer, routinely refuses to accept doctors’
notes, penalizes workers who need to take care of a sick family member and
otherwise punishes employees for lawful absences.

What is in Archive:

A report released Thursday by a workers’ advocacy group says Walmart, the
nation’s largest private employer, routinely refuses to accept doctors’
notes, penalizes workers who need to take care of a sick family member and
otherwise punishes employees for lawful absences.

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:17 AM, Mark Sapiro <
<email address hidden>> wrote:

> Your question #643171 on GNU Mailman changed:
> https://answers.launchpad.net/mailman/+question/643171
>
> Status: Open => Needs information
>
> Mark Sapiro requested more information:
> The sourceforge tracker was migrated to Launchpad several years ago.
> Since that time, the sourceforge tracker has been reorganized. The link
> you quote redirects to the current link
> <https://sourceforge.net/p/mailman/bugs/1135/> when I go to it, but in
> any case, the current launchpad location for the report is
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/266341>.
>
> That said, your list appears to be on Mailman 2.1.23 and the referenced
> bug was fixed in Mailman 2.1.10. In order to further diagnose your issue
> I need to know if the wrapping occurs only in the archives and in plain
> format digests or if it also appears in MIME format digests and
> individual messages to list members. I would also like to see a complete
> raw message as received from the list with this issue.
>
> The wrapping could occur in one of several places including the original
> sender's mail client or the recipient mail client or possibly in
> Mailman, but I need to see messages in order to begin to know where.
>
> --
> To answer this request for more information, you can either reply to
> this email or enter your reply at the following page:
> https://answers.launchpad.net/mailman/+question/643171
>
> You received this question notification because you asked the question.
>

Revision history for this message
Sekhar Ramakrishnan (sekharcu) said : 		#4

Sorry to keep at you Mark with this question, but I see the problem even on
this thread. My response this morning did show up in my Inbox, presumably
because the list added a header to it. But that has line breaks within
paragraphs, perhaps at your end as well. I am attaching a screenshot of how
my first email today looks in my thread (the times are in France, where I
am for a couple of weeks). If that gets through, it may help. Perhaps, the
problem is at my end, that the default gmail setting breaks up paragraphs.
It will help to know how to fix it.

For what it is worth, two other people post a lot to the list. One of them
uses gmail and his paragraphs also get split at 75 characters. The other's
posts come through fine. I just talked to the second person. He says he
posts not from gmail but rather with a Mac mail client called Mail where he
sets text-encoding to UTF-8. When I google to see if I can do this in
gmail, I see that there used to be an option but no more - gmail now
routinely uses UTF-8 it seems:
https://support.google.com/mail/forum/AAAAK7un8RUK5dBi5Vou8k?hl=en
https://www.emailonacid.com/blog/article/email-development/the_importance_of_content-type_character_encoding_in_html_emails
"Gmail is the only client that automatically converts your text to UTF-8"
-------

Is it possible there is some incompatibility between how gmail encodes text
in paragraphs and how Mailman wants it?

Thanks and regards, Sekhar

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Sekhar Ramakrishnan <
<email address hidden>> wrote:

> Your question #643171 on GNU Mailman changed:
> https://answers.launchpad.net/mailman/+question/643171
>
> You gave more information on the question:
> Thanks very much Mark for the prompt response, and I hope I am proceeding
> correctly by replying to your email (you probably noticed multiple emails
> from me yesterday as I was floundering around different websites).
>
> As you know, gmail suppresses from the Inbox messages sent to oneself, even
> those that were sent to lists. So I have below what my Sent Folder has,
> what the list archive has, and what a list member got (me under a different
> gmail address). I could have bcc'd you in my post to the list, but I wasn't
> sure if that was appropriate. I can also show you how the message looks in
> a digest, but that is on a different computer - is it ok if I forward that
> to the launchpad address?
>
> You asked for a complete raw message as received from the list. I am taking
> the liberty of forwarding the message from my second gmail address, and
> also from my Sent folder, to the launchpad address. I trust that is ok.
>
> Thanks again and regards, Sekhar
>
> >From Sent folder:
> A report released Thursday by a workers’ advocacy group says Walmart, the
> nation’s largest private employer, routinely refuses to accept doctors’
> notes, penalizes workers who need to take care of a sick family member and
> otherwise punishes employees for lawful absences.
>
> What Was Received:
> A report released Thursday by a workers’ advocacy group says Walmart, the
> nation’s largest private employer, routinely refuses to accept doctors’
> notes, penalizes workers who need to take care of a sick family member and
> otherwise punishes employees for lawful absences.
>
> What is in Archive:
>
> A report released Thursday by a workers’ advocacy group says Walmart, the
> nation’s largest private employer, routinely refuses to accept doctors’
> notes, penalizes workers who need to take care of a sick family member and
> otherwise punishes employees for lawful absences.
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:17 AM, Mark Sapiro <
> <email address hidden>> wrote:
>
> > Your question #643171 on GNU Mailman changed:
> > https://answers.launchpad.net/mailman/+question/643171
> >
> > Status: Open => Needs information
> >
> > Mark Sapiro requested more information:
> > The sourceforge tracker was migrated to Launchpad several years ago.
> > Since that time, the sourceforge tracker has been reorganized. The link
> > you quote redirects to the current link
> > <https://sourceforge.net/p/mailman/bugs/1135/> when I go to it, but in
> > any case, the current launchpad location for the report is
> > <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/266341>.
> >
> > That said, your list appears to be on Mailman 2.1.23 and the referenced
> > bug was fixed in Mailman 2.1.10. In order to further diagnose your issue
> > I need to know if the wrapping occurs only in the archives and in plain
> > format digests or if it also appears in MIME format digests and
> > individual messages to list members. I would also like to see a complete
> > raw message as received from the list with this issue.
> >
> > The wrapping could occur in one of several places including the original
> > sender's mail client or the recipient mail client or possibly in
> > Mailman, but I need to see messages in order to begin to know where.
> >
> > --
> > To answer this request for more information, you can either reply to
> > this email or enter your reply at the following page:
> > https://answers.launchpad.net/mailman/+question/643171
> >
> > You received this question notification because you asked the question.
> >
>
> --
> You received this question notification because you asked the question.
>

Revision history for this message
Mark Sapiro (msapiro) said : 		#5

Please look at your three examples as displayed in Comment #3 at <https://answers.launchpad.net/mailman/+question/643171>. They look identical.

What I need to see is actual, raw messages. What you see in gmail if you click the downward triangle "more" icon (next to the reply icon near the upper right in the message view) and select"show original".

Note the fact that you see the issue with messages that don't come through Mailman and the fact that it only occurs with some user's posts points to gmail and possibly other sending mail clients doing the wrapping.

I doubt that it has anything to do with utf-8 encoding, but it is apparently something gmail is doing.

Revision history for this message
Sekhar Ramakrishnan (sekharcu) said : 		#6

Thanks Mark for replying so quickly. I can well agree with you about gmail
but say instead, as I wrote in a later email, that there is perhaps an
incompatibility between what gmail does and what Mailman expects. What I
wrote in my later email was that the problem was seen even in this thread,
which is what you noticed in your comment that the three versions look the
same. But they didn't look the same when I emailed you. I have created a
pdf with three pages and put it on googledrive:
https://drive.google.com/a/caa.columbia.edu/file/d/0B_QeYOjHCoYnaFR1MWRZR0ZXOE0/view?usp=sharing
The first page is a screenshot of what gmail shows me as what I sent you,
the second is what that same email, forwarded to another email id, looks
like under Outlook with a wide window, and the third is the Outlook view
with a narrow window. You can see that my three-paragraph note and "From
Sent folder" are indeed shown without line breaks both in gmail and in
Outlook, but not in your Inbox. I had hoped you could see that in my prior
email but the Mailman barrier got in the way.

Again, not that gmail is not to blame, but it looks as if Outlook
understood gmail while Mailman did not. Is there some email address I can
send what I posted for you to see, especially with regard to the coding
compatibility with UTF-8 etc? I wouldn't mind at all following up with
Google if it seems there is an error in their encoding, claimed to be UTF-8.

Thanks and regards, Sekhar

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 7:44 PM, Mark Sapiro <
<email address hidden>> wrote:

> Your question #643171 on GNU Mailman changed:
> https://answers.launchpad.net/mailman/+question/643171
>
> Mark Sapiro posted a new comment:
> Please look at your three examples as displayed in Comment #3 at
> <https://answers.launchpad.net/mailman/+question/643171>. They look
> identical.
>
> What I need to see is actual, raw messages. What you see in gmail if you
> click the downward triangle "more" icon (next to the reply icon near the
> upper right in the message view) and select"show original".
>
> Note the fact that you see the issue with messages that don't come
> through Mailman and the fact that it only occurs with some user's posts
> points to gmail and possibly other sending mail clients doing the
> wrapping.
>
> I doubt that it has anything to do with utf-8 encoding, but it is
> apparently something gmail is doing.
>
> --
> You received this question notification because you asked the question.
>

Revision history for this message
Mark Sapiro (msapiro) said : 		#7

Screenshots tell me nothing beyond the fact the the message looks different in different contexts which you've already told me and which I believe.

> What I wrote in my later email was that the problem was seen even in this thread

Exactly, and the fact that you see the issue in contexts which don't involve Mailman would seem to say it's not a Mailman issue.

I am also certain it has nothing to do with utf-8 encoding.

What *might* be an issue is Mailman's content filtering. If the Mailman list is set to filter content and to either not accept HTML or to collapse alternatives, it's possible that gmail is composing a multi-part/alternative message with text/plain and text/html alternatives and the text/plain part has wrapped lines and the text/html part doesn't. Then Outlook shows you a rendered text/html part without wrapped lines and Mailman filters out that part and sends only the text/plain part with wrapped lines, but that is only a conjecture.

I can't tell you anything until I see complete, raw messages with all headers as sent to Mailman and as received from Mailman. With that, I can tell you what's happening and if there is or isn't a Mailman issue. Without that, I can't tell you anything about the underlying issue.

Revision history for this message
Mark Sapiro (msapiro) said : 		#8

Here's some more information. I composed a message in gmail and sent it to myself. Here's the raw message from my gmail saved messages folder.

-----------------------------------------------Start of raw message---------------------
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.79.150.5 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2017 16:28:30 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 16:28:30 -0700
Delivered-To: <email address hidden>
Message-ID: <email address hidden>
Subject: multipart/alternative from gmail
From: Mark Sapiro <email address hidden>
To: Mark Sapiro <email address hidden>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114881521c3c700551dfcb58"

--001a114881521c3c700551dfcb58
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Here is a message with a longish paragraph. It is rather boring because I'm
not good at writing long paragraphs about nothing. But in any case, this
should do as an illustration.

Another paragraph just for kicks.

--
Mark Sapiro <email address hidden> The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan

--001a114881521c3c700551dfcb58
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Here is a message with a longish paragraph. It is rat=
her boring because I&#39;m not good at writing long paragraphs about nothin=
g. But in any case, this should do as an illustration.<br><br></div>Another=
 paragraph just for kicks.<br clear=3D"all"><div><br>-- <br><div class=3D"g=
mail_signature">Mark Sapiro &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<email address hidden>" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><email address hidden></a>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The highway is for=
 gamblers,<br>San Francisco Bay Area, California=C2=A0 =C2=A0 better use yo=
ur sense - B. Dylan</div>
</div></div>

--001a114881521c3c700551dfcb58--
-----------------------------------------------End of raw message-----------------------

The text/plain alternative part above has wrapped the long paragraph into 3 lines even though the text/html alternative contains no line breaks in that paragraph (the lines that end with '=' are joined to the following line. This is part of how Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable works).

In any case, what we see is a text/html part with no extraneous line breaks and a text/plain part with line breaks.

Thus, it is likely that this is a combination of gmail's conversion of rich text to plain text plus some process in the delivery chain removing the text/html part. In the case of Mailman, this removal is controlled by the list's Content filtering.

Revision history for this message
Sekhar Ramakrishnan (sekharcu) said : 		#9

Thanks Mark, and I think you have now explained the problem perfectly. Our
list, perhaps like this one as well, does strip any non-plain part, and I
am sure gmail sends a multipart message. Indeed, as you suspected, when I
sent an email in plain text mode, Outlook does show the line breaks within
paragraphs. So, thanks very much for explaining this.

With this understanding, is there anything I can do in Mailman so that the
line breaks don't appear within paragraphs, while still blocking images
etc? Googling, I found a post from you back in 2011:
http://ftp.grokbase.com/t/python/mailman-users/1117vmw676/jpg-images-not-
being-filtered

Accordingly, I went to the Content-filtering page for our list and
(1) put in "image" under Remove Message Attachments that have a matching
content type;
(2) added text/html to the next item, which already had
multipart/mixed
multipart/alternative
multipart/related
text/plain

(3) added jpg and jpeg to the next item for extensions to be removed.

I posted a message after these changes but the archive, and what is
received by my Outlook id, still has the line breaks inside paragraphs. The
mail sent has, as you guessed, both plain and html parts. I have below the
headers, very similar to the earlier Walmart mail I wrote you about.

Any advice you can give on Mailman settings will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks and regards, Sekhar

MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.25.21.162 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2017 17:18:09 -0700 (PDT)
Reply-To: <email address hidden>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 02:18:09 +0200
Delivered-To: <email address hidden>
Message-ID: <email address hidden>
Subject: Trump, aspiring dictator
From: Sekhar Ramakrishnan <email address hidden>
To: foil-l <email address hidden>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1140363eaa02950551e07cce"

--001a1140363eaa02950551e07cce
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Increasing drumbeat from Trump supporters to fire the special prosecutor
looking into Trump-Russia links raises the question again about Trump as
dictator.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/06/06/opinion/the-lawless-presidency.htmlhttps://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/06/05/opinion/trump-gop-paris-climate-accor=
d.htmlhttps://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/06/10/sunday-review/bridgegate-lives.html
three from nytimes (the last is good at reinforcing the idea of Trump as a
mafia don), and
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/06/12/trump-is-likel=
y-to-get-much-much-worse-here-are-a-few-big-things-to-watch-for/https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/06/13/if-trump-tips-=
into-full-blown-authoritarianism-will-republicans-step-up-dont-count-on-it/
two news summaries by Greg Sargent

contain the material below.

Sekhar

How much time will there be between the release of the bill text and the
vote on it? A few days? Or maybe it will be measurable in hours.

--001a1140363eaa02950551e07cce
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Increasing drumbeat from Trump supporters to fire the=
 special prosecutor looking into Trump-Russia links raises the question aga=
in about Trump as dictator.</div><div><br></div><div><a
href=3D"https://mob=ile.nytimes.com/2017/06/06/opinion/the-lawless-presidency.html">https://mob=ile.nytimes.com/2017/06/06/opinion/the-lawless-presidency.html</a></div><di=
v><a href=3D"https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/06/05/opinion/trump-gop-paris-=
climate-accord.html">https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/06/05/opinion/trump-go=
p-paris-climate-accord.html</a></div><div><a href=3D"https://mobile.nytimes=
.com/2017/06/10/sunday-review/bridgegate-lives.html">https://mobile.nytimes=
.com/2017/06/10/sunday-review/bridgegate-lives.html</a></div><div>three fro=
m nytimes (the last is good at reinforcing the idea of Trump as a mafia don=
), and</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://www.washingtonpost.com/b=
logs/plum-line/wp/2017/06/12/trump-is-likely-to-get-much-much-worse-here-ar=
e-a-few-big-things-to-watch-for/">https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum=
-line/wp/2017/06/12/trump-is-likely-to-get-much-much-worse-here-are-a-few-b=
ig-things-to-watch-for/</a></div><div><a href=3D"https://www.washingtonpost=
.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/06/13/if-trump-tips-into-full-blown-authoritar=
ianism-will-republicans-step-up-dont-count-on-it/">https://www.washingtonpo=st.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/06/13/if-trump-tips-into-full-blown-authorit=
arianism-will-republicans-step-up-dont-count-on-it/</a></div><div>two news =
summaries by Greg Sargent</div><div><br></div><div>contain the material bel=
ow.</div><div><br></div><div>Sekhar</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 NY Times June 6, 2017</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The Lawless Presidency</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=

On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 1:17 AM, Mark Sapiro <
<email address hidden>> wrote:

> Your question #643171 on GNU Mailman changed:
> https://answers.launchpad.net/mailman/+question/643171
>
> Status: Open => Needs information
>
> Mark Sapiro requested more information:
> Screenshots tell me nothing beyond the fact the the message looks
> different in different contexts which you've already told me and which I
> believe.
>
> > What I wrote in my later email was that the problem was seen even in
> this thread
>
> Exactly, and the fact that you see the issue in contexts which don't
> involve Mailman would seem to say it's not a Mailman issue.
>
> I am also certain it has nothing to do with utf-8 encoding.
>
> What *might* be an issue is Mailman's content filtering. If the Mailman
> list is set to filter content and to either not accept HTML or to
> collapse alternatives, it's possible that gmail is composing a multi-
> part/alternative message with text/plain and text/html alternatives and
> the text/plain part has wrapped lines and the text/html part doesn't.
> Then Outlook shows you a rendered text/html part without wrapped lines
> and Mailman filters out that part and sends only the text/plain part
> with wrapped lines, but that is only a conjecture.
>
> I can't tell you anything until I see complete, raw messages with all
> headers as sent to Mailman and as received from Mailman. With that, I
> can tell you what's happening and if there is or isn't a Mailman issue.
> Without that, I can't tell you anything about the underlying issue.
>
> --
> To answer this request for more information, you can either reply to
> this email or enter your reply at the following page:
> https://answers.launchpad.net/mailman/+question/643171
>
> You received this question notification because you asked the question.
>

Revision history for this message
Best Mark Sapiro (msapiro) said : 		#10

You wrote:

> Accordingly, I went to the Content-filtering page for our list and
> (1) put in "image" under Remove Message Attachments that have a matching content type;

This is unnecessary as any types not explicitly in pass_mime_types will be removed.

> (2) added text/html to the next item, which already had
> multipart/mixed
> multipart/alternative
> multipart/related
> text/plain

Good.

> (3) added jpg and jpeg to the next item for extensions to be removed.

Again, probably not necessary because they will have a MIME type not in pass_mime_types.

I posted a message after these changes but the archive, and what is
received by my Outlook id, still has the line breaks inside paragraphs.

You also have to set both collapse_alternatives and convert_html_to_plaintext to No.

Revision history for this message
Sekhar Ramakrishnan (sekharcu) said : 		#11

The one suggestion I would have is for this information (include text/html along with text/plain in what is not to be removed, and set both collapse_alternatives and convert_html_to_plaintext to No) to be more visible so that others find the solution easily.

Revision history for this message
Sekhar Ramakrishnan (sekharcu) said : 		#12

Thank you very much Mark. Those settings solved the issue. I am sorry to
have bothered you with so many emails over what is clearly a poor
understanding on my part of Mailman settings. Thanks for being so patient.
The one suggestion I would have is for this information (include text/html
along with text/plain in what is not to be removed, and set both
collapse_alternatives and convert_html_to_plaintext to No) to be more
visible so that others find the solution easily.

Thanks again and regards, Sekhar

On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 3:11 AM, Mark Sapiro <
<email address hidden>> wrote:

> Your question #643171 on GNU Mailman changed:
> https://answers.launchpad.net/mailman/+question/643171
>
> Status: Open => Answered
>
> Mark Sapiro proposed the following answer:
> You wrote:
>
> > Accordingly, I went to the Content-filtering page for our list and
> > (1) put in "image" under Remove Message Attachments that have a matching
> content type;
>
> This is unnecessary as any types not explicitly in pass_mime_types will
> be removed.
>
>
> > (2) added text/html to the next item, which already had
> > multipart/mixed
> > multipart/alternative
> > multipart/related
> > text/plain
>
> Good.
>
> > (3) added jpg and jpeg to the next item for extensions to be removed.
>
> Again, probably not necessary because they will have a MIME type not in
> pass_mime_types.
>
>
> I posted a message after these changes but the archive, and what is
> received by my Outlook id, still has the line breaks inside paragraphs.
>
> You also have to set both collapse_alternatives and
> convert_html_to_plaintext to No.
>
> --
> If this answers your question, please go to the following page to let us
> know that it is solved:
> https://answers.launchpad.net/mailman/+question/643171/+
> confirm?answer_id=9
>
> If you still need help, you can reply to this email or go to the
> following page to enter your feedback:
> https://answers.launchpad.net/mailman/+question/643171
>
> You received this question notification because you asked the question.
>