[i845g] Karmic stops responding a few minutes after log in

First tarball of debugging information collected as instructed in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Troubleshooting/Freeze

Second tarball of debugging information collected as directed by https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Troubleshooting/Freeze

Now that I've seen this a bunch of times, I can confirm:

- ssh always continues to work! I must have made a mistake early on when I thought it didn't.

- freezes occur in GNOME, GNOME safe mode, xterm sessions, and even once at the gdm login prompt (but this was after a GNOME session and a logout).

Also, sometimes I seem to be able to induce the freeze by switching between virtual terminals and X with ctrl-alt-F?, but not always.

Please let me know if any more information or investigation would be useful. This is a high-priority bug for me as it makes my main machine unusable.

Another freeze info tarball.

Adam, thanks for doing a good job at documenting these freezes.

I have forwarded this bug upstream to the intel developers at https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=24825 . Please subscribe to that bug report (i.e. get an account if you don't have one and add yourself to the CC field), so that you can answer any questions that they might have.

There are a few things you can do right away to narrow down the cause a bit further. Try to turn off Desktop Effects and see if the freezes still happens then. If it does, the cause is not in the compositing stuff. Another option is to turn off KMS by using nomodeset at the boot command line (Esc to bring up the Grub menu at boot if you don't have it already, 'e' to edit the command line, add 'nomodeset' right after 'quiet' and 'splash'). Finally, you can check if the problem exists in the latest upstream versions by (separately and together) testing with xorg-edgers (https://launchpad.net/~xorg-edgers/+archive/ppa) and a recent mainline kernel from http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/mainline/ (you only need to install the linux-image package for your architecture).

I have this identical problem.
Will provide logs shortly.

I have encountered this same problem after recently upgrading to Ubuntu 9.10 from 9.04 on an old Dell 2350 which has the same Intel 82845G graphics chipset. I have reloaded 9.04 and the system is then stable.

I was seeing this lockup on my 9.10 system (an old Compaq Evo D510 computer). I followed the suggestion of Geir Ove Myhr to turn off KMS and the system has now been up for over 10 days without any issues.

I tried passing nomodeset to the kernel on boot to disable KMS, but still get identical freezes. I will post a tarball of debugging info as soon as I can. (Desktop effects have been off the whole time I've seen this bug.)

Interestingly, while 1280x1024 resolution is not available anymore (and was available under jaunty!), it becomes available if I pass nomodeset to the kernel. Same freezes, though.

I also tried the xorg-edgers ppa with both the stock karmic kernel and with the newest mainline kernel from kernel-ppa. With xorg-edgers and the stock karmic kernel, I get identical freezes. With the newest mainline kernel from kernel-ppa and xorg-edgers, I get a freeze that behaves somewhat differently and seems to happen more frequently - plus there are i915 errors printed on the first virtual console about rendering errors with this kernel/xorg combination. If I have a chance I can submit tarballs of debugging info for all combinations of kernel/xorg I've tried, but I'm unsure that it's the same bug.

I am open to any other advice or debugging techniques no matter how off-the-wall.

Adam, there code that decides the resolution is different with KMS (it is in the kernel) than with UMS (nomodeset, it is in the -intel driver). There have been a number of problems with this, and many have been solved in the new kernel (2.6.32). But let's focus on the freezes here.

On some similar freezes on i855 it was suggested to use xorg-edgers and an option to flush the debug cache in order to get better batchbuffer dumps. See bug 447892, comment 23. Unlike Albert Damen I do not know how to read batchbuffer dumps, but I can imagine that it would be easier for the developers to make sense of it with that option on.

This affects me too - I am using a Foxconn R10-S1 Ultra Small Form Factor Intel Atom (230) Intel 945GC+ICH7 Mini-ITX machine.

I have a similar problem randomly on Intel 945GM.

Similar problem on Panasonic CF-W2 - Intel 855 graphic.
But after downgrade to Janunty 2.4 backported drivers (yes use Jaunty 2.4 driver in Karmic) It works.

Same problem with Lucid alpha 1.

Similar problem here. Is this bug different than Bug #466310? Seems pretty similar to me. Either way, it'd be nice to get this resolved. I have a Dell Inspiron 1100 with Intel 82845 G and my kernel is 2.6.31-16-generic. I don't use compiz special effects. Something I've been wondering about, when people mention resolution settings, xorg.conf edits, or hardware device settings, I can't change any resolution (it's all blank), and my xorg.conf file is blank as well, and for hardware devices, my system says no proprietary drivers are in use. Is that an indication of anything?

I have compiled three Ubuntu Jaunty kernel packages based on Brian Rogers' findings upstream at made them available at http://www.kvante.info/845Gfreeze/ . They may also work in Karmic, but I'm not sure. If you have the same problem as Brian, 2.6.30-freezetest1 should work without the freezes and 2.6.30-freezetest9 should freeze. I also included another kernel, 2.6.30-freezetest8, which is the same as freezetest9 except the last (and suspicious) commit is not included. If 2.6.30-freezetest8 doesn't freeze and 2.6.30-freezetest9 does, we know what commit triggers the problem and upstream can hopefully use that to fix this bug. If freezetest8 also freezes there is some more bisecting to do.

In order to test the kernels, it is enough to download the linux-image*.deb packages. (the linux-headers packages are not necessary for testing). They install side-by-side with the each other and the other packages on your system, so you can download all three to a folder and do an `dpkg -i linux-image*.deb`. You can then choose which kernel to test in the Grub boot menu. When you are done testing you may remove the test kernels with `dpkg -P linux-image-2.6.30-freezetest1 linux-image-2.6.30-freezetest8 linux-image-2.6.30-freezetest9`.

I may set up a wiki page for reporting test results, but for now feel free to report the results in a comment here.

1. Running the installer in "Safe graphics mode" seems not only to run the installer in safe graphics mode, but also to install either karmic or lucid alpha in a safe graphics mode in which the freezes don't occur. Some packages, like Gnometris (Quatropassel in Luicd) behave strangely in safe graphics mode, to an extent that makes them unuseable. Other are hardly affected.

2. Anyone know of a way, with Karmic or Luicid, to invoke safe graphics mode on bootup of an installed system so that the system is live long enough to do the kernal testing suggested by Geir?

On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Mark Ellse wrote:
> 1. Running the installer in "Safe graphics mode" seems not only to run
> the installer in safe graphics mode, but also to install either karmic
> or lucid alpha in a safe graphics mode in which the freezes don't occur.
> Some packages, like Gnometris (Quatropassel in Luicd) behave strangely
> in safe graphics mode, to an extent that makes them unuseable. Other are
> hardly affected.

You can use the alternate CD to install, so that the installer doesn't
start X at all.

> 2. Anyone know of a way, with Karmic or Luicid, to invoke safe graphics
> mode on bootup of an installed system so that the system is live long
> enough to do the kernal testing suggested by Geir?

You can boot into recovery mode from the Grub boot menu. If you
already have downloaded the files you can choose root shell from the
recovery menu. If you need to download them, you may choose netroot
(but then you may need ethernet instead of wireless).

The easiest way to test is probably to use Jaunty. It should not have
these freeze problems with the standard kernel. You can then install
the kernels without problems and then boot the test kernels to check
if the system freezes.

Done the testing suggested by Geir. All done on Lucid, but I guess the same is true for Karmic.
2.6.30-freezetest1 works
2.6.30-freezetest9 freezes
2.6.30-freezetest8 works

For those who wish to test, here is what to do.
When your machine is booting, press ESC a single time early during bootup to get the GRUB boot menu. (When to press ESC needs a bit of experiment because both Karmic and Lucid are designed to boot fast, not to spend time waiting for key presses.)
When you get the boot menue, choose recovery mode and select a shell with networking
Download files from shell. I used:

'wget http://www.hvante.info/845Gfreeze'

This downloads an index file with the file names on there.

Then, for each file, download them. Here is an example of one.

'wget www.kvante.info/845Gfreeze/linux-image-2.6.30-freezetest1_git03347e2~gomyhr_i386.deb'

You have to do each file individually; wildcards are not allowed with http downloads.

Then:

`dpkg -i linux-image*.deb`.

I got some funny messages, which didn't seem to matter.
(Hmm. There is a symbolic link /lib/modules/2.6.30........
However, I can not read it: No such file or directory
Therefore I am deleting /lib/modules/2.6.30......) These funny messages didn't seem to matter.

Then boot your computer and choose which kernel to test in the Grub boot menu - see Geir's instructions above. (Remember, you need to get the Grub boot menu by pressing ESC early during the bootup as above.)

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Mark Ellse wrote:
> Done the testing suggested by Geir. All done on Lucid, but I guess the same is true for Karmic.
> 2.6.30-freezetest1 works
> 2.6.30-freezetest9 freezes
> 2.6.30-freezetest8 works

Great! That's the first confirmation that the commit that Brian Rogers
suspected was indeed the one.

Thanks for the detailed explanation of how to test.

Geir Ove

Done the testing suggested by Geir. Done on Karmic.
2.6.30-freezetest1 works
2.6.30-freezetest9 freezes
2.6.30-freezetest8 works

Geir, it seems clear where the problem is. Will you report that upstream? I've no idea how to do that, but if you give me instructions...

Thanks! I will try that. Is this issue present in Lucid? Would upgrading to Lucid solve this issue? Thank you!

crazybyte, did you use Brian's PPA: https://launchpad.net/~brian-rogers/+archive/graphics-testing ?

This version is working on two of my PC's

I haven't yet seen the familiar freeze, but I've also not really had the
opportunity to work with that box for very long at a stretch, so I'm not
prepared to swear it's stable yet.

@shadetree Thanks! It seems that using Brian's PPA solves the issue in my case. Until now I didn't got a freeze and I'm using modeset and fully working X (without vesa driver).

It lloks that the packages from Brian's PPA repository finally solved the freezing issue for me. I'm using modeset and X (without graphical effects) and the machine is running since morning and didn't freeze at all.
@Brian Rogers Thank you for your amazing work and effort in solving this issue. Thank you again! :)

$ dpkg --status libdrm-dev libdrm-intel1 libdrm-intel1-dbg libdrm-nouveau1 libdrm-nouveau1-dbg libdrm2 libdrm2-dbg xserver-xorg-video-intel xserver-xorg-video-intel-dbg | grep Version | uniqowner@owner-desktop:~$ dpkg --status libdrm-dev libdlibdrm-nouveau1 libdrm-nouveau1-dbg libdrm2 libdrm2-dbg xserver-xorg-video-intel xserver-xorg-video-intel-dbg | grep Version | uniq
Version: 2.4.11-0jaunty2
Version: 2:2.7.0-jaunty2
$ uname -rv
2.6.28-11-generic #42-Ubuntu SMP Fri Apr 17 01:57:59 UTC 2009

Booted with vga=791 kernel parameter. xorg.conf as attached.

Been using this for quite a few hours now. It seems stable, and text console switching also works; without Driver "intel" in xorg.conf, X chose the vesa driver instead. My previous report about text console badness *does not apply* to the intel driver. I think we're back on track.

That's interesting because those are essentially the same versions that were unstable for you in Karmic. Can you attach /var/log/Xorg.0.log for both Karmic and Jaunty running graphics-testing?

OK, here I am back in Karmic, and just making sure we're all using the same stuff:

$ pkgs='libdrm-dev libdrm-intel1 libdrm-intel1-dbg libdrm-nouveau1 libdrm-nouveau1-dbg libdrm2 libdrm2-dbg xserver-xorg-video-intel xserver-xorg-video-intel-dbg'; sudo apt-get install $pkgs >/dev/null && dpkg --status $pkgs | grep Version | uniq && uname -rv
Version: 1:2.4.11-2+karmic3
Version: 12:2.7.0
2.6.31-19-generic #56-Ubuntu SMP Thu Jan 28 01:26:53 UTC 2010

I've attached Xorg.0.log from Jaunty per comment #184 and Karmic per this one. Will run in Karmic until I can verify that it freezes, then report and boot back into Jaunty.

Karmic froze. Now testing Jaunty.

20 hours freeze free - I'm prepared to call it stable.

Can you try Jaunty's kernel on Karmic and Karmic's kernel on Jaunty, to see if the difference in stability is due to the kernel versions?

Now using Karmic with Jaunty's kernel.

$ pkgs='libdrm-dev libdrm-intel1 libdrm-intel1-dbg libdrm-nouveau1 libdrm-nouveau1-dbg libdrm2 libdrm2-dbg xserver-xorg-video-intel xserver-xorg-video-intel-dbg'; dpkg --status $pkgs | grep Version | uniq && uname -rv
Version: 1:2.4.11-2+karmic3
Version: 12:2.7.0
2.6.28-18-generic #60-Ubuntu SMP Fri Mar 12 04:40:52 UTC 2010

Feels quite slow, and I'm only getting about 1/3 the usual fps out of glxgears. The attached Xorg.0.log looks like I'm loading the right driver, though.

Awaiting freezes.

It died, but not exactly the same way: this time, there was a sudden burst of disk activity during which everything went black, then no response to mouse or keyboard. I've attached Xorg.0.log retrieved via ssh before I rebooted; looks like X has crashed and then failed on restart.

Been out of testing for a while - busy and gave up testing with Lucid alpha 3 even more unstable than Lucid 2. Now testing with Lucid beta 1 - stable long enough to do updates via gui.

Have installed Lucid, updated and added ppa:brian-rogers/graphics-testing to sources, using gui. When I update I get complaints about lack of public key. But, because of the number of recent posts, not sure what to do now.

Would be grateful for:

1. confirmation that the latest testing is in ppa:brian-rogers/graphics-testing
2. details of public key and how to install, preferably via gui.

Thank, Mark

Hello Mark, I understand the many posts.....I have been on Brian-rogers/graphics-testing ppa karmic, with descent reliability.

Are you using his lucid or karmic compiled ppa?

Sorry, don't quite understand the question. (I'm not very techie!) I am
using karmic beta testing and have added brian-rogers/graphics-testing to
the sources. Cheers

OK, Brian's PPA: https://launchpad.net/~brian-rogers/+archive/graphics-testing, has a driver just for lucid.

You will need to choose and sub to that PPA.

There are potential fixes for this in the upstream development version. I uploaded it for Lucid to the following PPA:
https://launchpad.net/~brian-rogers/+archive/experimental

I can't simply upload this version for Karmic because it requires new versions of support libraries, but I can backport the important fixes. If someone can verify this version fixes the bug in Lucid, I'll backport the changes and we can get them in Karmic.

OK, at this point, I recommend the xorg-edgers PPA for testing. It now has the newest xserver-xorg-video-intel driver, as well as libdrm and Xorg. Updating just the first part may have caused some stability issues. Does xorg-edgers experience the freezing issue?

Oh, here is the link:
https://launchpad.net/~xorg-edgers/+archive/ppa

I have uploaded xserver-xorg-video-intel with the backported fix for
both Karmic and Lucid to my standard PPA:
https://launchpad.net/~gomyhr/+archive/standard/ . If I didn't make
any mistake in the backporting or building, there should be no
additional problems with this ones compared to the standard Ubuntu
packages, since the fix is the only thing that has changed.

@developers: I'm not too familiar with quilt, so I edited the source
tree directly instead of adding a patch in debian/patches, but for
testing purposes, this should be no problem. The only change from the
commit patch is to change the pixmap to pPixmap and change the
indentation.

$ pkgs='libdrm-dev libdrm-intel1 libdrm-intel1-dbg libdrm-nouveau1 libdrm-nouveau1-dbg libdrm2 libdrm2-dbg xserver-xorg-video-intel xserver-xorg-video-intel-dbg'
$ dpkg --status $pkgs | grep Version | uniq && uname -rv
Version: 2.4.14-1ubuntu1
Version: 2:2.9.0-1ubuntu2.2~gomyhr1~clipsolids~karmic
2.6.31-20-generic #58-Ubuntu SMP Fri Mar 12 05:23:09 UTC 2010

Will continue to use this box for general work and report any freezes.

Same old freeze while using remote desktop viewer.

Brian: after the last freeze, I accidentally rebooted into your patched kernel (2.6.31-50-generic) and ran it for a while with the same packages as in comment #200, and it also froze while I was using remote desktop viewer. So it looks like even that kernel's horrible GUI sloth doesn't actually prevent the freeze.

Flabdablet, can you try Lucid + xorg-edgers? The upstream driver has additional bugfixes that may be relevant.

Having trouble getting the box to boot at all with Lucid + xorg-edgers, as xserver-xorg-video-intel requires mode switching enabled in the kernel but leaving nomodeset=1 off the options line makes the machine boot into a video mode that its monitor doesn't support (probably related to bug 522488). Also, I no longer have bench space for that box at work; will bring it home in the next few days and report back once I get it working at all with Lucid.

I have a kernel for people to try in my experimental PPA:
https://launchpad.net/~brian-rogers/+archive/experimental

It contains the gtt chipset flush v7 patch from http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=27187 on top of linux 2.6.34-rc3. This patch has managed to stabilize the system for some i855 users, but hasn't seen much i845 testing yet.

You'll have to manually install linux-image-2.6.34rc3-51-generic after adding the PPA and reloading.

That experimental kernel (2.6.34-rc3-51.1~karmic) didn't do it for me: my
i855 froze up during login. I was running it with the following packages:
   libdrm 1:2.4.11-2+karmic3
   mesa 1:7.4.1ubuntu6+karmic
   xserver-xorg-video-intel 2:2.9.0-1ubuntu2.2~gomyhr1~clipsolids~karmic
My GPU: Intel 82852/855GM [8086:3582] (rev 02)

Maybe a different set of packages would've worked better with that kernel?

So far the only stable combination I've found is Geir Ove Myhr's (Jan. 2,
2010)
linux-image-2.6.31.1-855gmtest599-git522bb74_gomyhr1_i386 (downloaded from
http://www.kvante.info/855GMfreeze/) running with the standard Karmic
packages:
   libdrm 2.4.14-1ubuntu1
   mesa 7.6.0-1ubuntu4
   xserver-xorg-video-intel 2:2.9.0-1ubuntu2.1

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 8:40 PM, Brian Rogers <email address hidden> wrote:

> I have a kernel for people to try in my experimental PPA:
> https://launchpad.net/~brian-rogers/+archive/experimental<https://launchpad.net/%7Ebrian-rogers/+archive/experimental>
>
> It contains the gtt chipset flush v7 patch from
> http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=27187 on top of linux
> 2.6.34-rc3. This patch has managed to stabilize the system for some i855
> users, but hasn't seen much i845 testing yet.
>
> You'll have to manually install linux-image-2.6.34rc3-51-generic after
> adding the PPA and reloading.
>
> ** Bug watch added: freedesktop.org Bugzilla #27187
> http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=27187
>
> --
> [i845g] Karmic stops responding a few minutes after log in
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/456902
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>
> Status in X.org xf86-video-intel: In Progress
> Status in “xserver-xorg-video-intel” package in Ubuntu: Confirmed
>
> Bug description:
> Binary package hint: xorg
>
> After a do-release-upgrade -d from jaunty to karmic beta, I am getting
> "lock ups".
>
> If I don't log in and just leave gdm idling, the machine doesn't freeze.
> If I switch to a virtual console and use that, no freeze. I can ssh in
> just fine and do all kinds of stuff with no lock ups. But once I log in via
> gdm, I can go <strike>about 5-10 minutes</strike> EDIT 22 Oct 2009: anywhere
> from a few minutes to 12 hours or so until the machine:
>
> EDIT 26 Oct 2009: Please see comments for update on how the freezes
> behave!
>
> 1) <strike>stops responding to all mouse/keyboard input</strike> EDIT 2 Oct
> 2009: In all freezes, the keyboard stops responding and mouse clicks do
> nothing. Recent freezes have left the mouse pointer movable, but some of
> the first freezes I saw left the mouse pointer immovable.
> 2) CapsLock will not toggle
> 3) <strike>sshing in doesn't work anymore</strike> EDIT 2 Oct 2009: This
> may not be the case. The freezes occurring over the last couple of days
> have left ssh still operating.
> 4) alt+sysrq+reisub will cause a reboot, and the screen usually blanks
> after the 'i' is put in to send SIGKILL to all processes.
>
> I have the 82845G graphics chipset, and i915 is shown in the output of
> lsmod. As the problem only occurs when I'm in X, and as it doesn't matter
> whether I'm in GNOME or a failsafe xterm session, I suspect...

I recommend trying the experimental kernel with xorg-edgers. Or if not that, the standard packages.

I'm experiencing the same problem with both Ubuntu 9.10 and 10.04 beta 2
My hardware is a MSI mainboard MS-7536 with an Intel 945G/GZ Integrated Graphics chip.

The screen freezes after a short while, sometimes even before the desktop is loaded...
Mouse pointer was every time unmovable/unusable.
Keyboard does not respond to normal input but reacts to Alt-SysRq reisub...
The machine stays reachable over SSH.
Resetting the X server does not revive the display.

If i can be of any assistance please let me know.

Thanks everyone for all the testing but after about a year working on Karmic and a few months of Lucid with the same issues I am giving up and removing Ubuntu on these machines.

Again thanks for all the help and suggestions,

shadetree

For information, here is something useful, frustrating, but also encouraging on the Ubuntu discussions list about this bug.

"it's importance (is) high, has had an upstream developer participating, and an
awesome member of the x-swat team providing PPA testing packages. The
fact that it remains unfixed is not due to any lack of work on it!

The X team have been monitoring this, and other similar problems - the
i8xx chips have not had a good time of Lucid. As you see on that bug
there has been lots of work upstream to isolate and fix the cause.

Tracking the various upstream bugs you'll see that there have been a
number of false starts, but it looks like there *might* be a fix soon.
That fix won't be going into Lucid's release, as it's a big patch which
touches code for all the Intel cards, and hence might introduce new
problems in the i9xx chips. If all goes well, this might make it into
lucid-updates and 10.04.1.

Because of the serious stability issues i845 and i855 users have been
reporting we're testing disabling both 3D and KMS on these chips. If
feedback shows that this still isn't stable, we've got a fallback plan
to switch to vesa on those cards, which has been reported stable.
That's a serious functionality regression, but might be necessary to
provide a sufficiently stable desktop. In this case, users will be able
to manually enable the -intel driver, KMS, and 3D if they wish - these
bugs are incredibly timing-specific, with some setups crashing almost
immediately after starting X, and others crashing less than once a week.

--
Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list

First of all a big thanks to all the people working on this problem!

My system is using an i945 gfx chip and also freezing.

Is this related to the same bug? Because the i945 chip was not mentioned in your reply...

Thanks

> My system is using an i945 gfx chip and also freezing.
> Is this related to the same bug?

No. The bugs on i845 and i855 are not the same either, since the fix that is taking shape upstream for i855 does not work for i845. It is very rare that the same bug affects different chipsets.

> No. The bugs on i845 and i855 are not the same either, since the fix that is taking shape upstream
> for i855 does not work for i845. It is very rare that the same bug affects different chipsets.

Thanks

I found another bug rapport (#450853) related to gfx freezing on i945.

Being an Ubuntu newbie, I'm afraid that the discussion has gotten a bit too technical for me recently and has lost me somewhere on the way.

I understand an official fix for this won't be available for some time. The ppa, however, has served me quite well on my Dell Inspiron 1100 with Karmic.

With the increasing excitement about the release of Lucid, I'd like to upgrade my machine but am wary that I might get freezes again. Thus my question, is there also a separate ppa for Lucid (or do I just add the same source??) that will most likely do the same job for me (if so what do I need to add)? Or can I only try and see?

A big thank you at this point for the terrific work that's been done here so far!

I, too, would be grateful for simple instructions as to how to get the latest test releases for Lucid. In Lucid I find that I cannot add

https://launchpad.net/~brian-rogers/+archive/graphics-testing

to sources. When I try to do that via the gui, it asks for 'the complete APT line' including the type, location and components. When I type the above in, 'Add Source' is greyed out. The only button available is 'Cancel'.

That's the information page for the PPA. You'll find instructions for adding it there.

But my 'experimental' PPA with a patched kernel is a better option: https://launchpad.net/~brian-rogers/+archive/experimental

To add it, add this to your sources: ppa:brian-rogers/experimental

Then after reloading sources, you'll be able to install linux-image-2.6.34rc7-51-generic.

is there any news whether version 10.04.1, that will be released in a couple of weeks, will have this problem solved?

This appears to be the same problem as bug 541492. It's just that most people weren't hitting the bug with any degree of frequency until Lucid. Duping.