the wireless lan card card in my laptop wont work

Asked by Bill Muller

I have installed kubuntu 11.04 on my HP zd8004 laptop and cant get the wireless NIC working, I have read through several threads on various forums (the most closely related being https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-nettool/+question/136097) I have taken the actions detailed in this problem - (see below) but had no sucess fixing the problem.

sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get install b43-fwcutter

The commands and output specified in this thread are pasted below;

sudo apt-get update; sudo apt-get install hwinfo grep; sudo lshw -C network; rfkill list; sudo iwlist scanning; cat /etc/network/interfaces; cat /etc/lsb-release; lspci -nn; lsusb; sudo lshw -short; uname -a; dmesg | egrep 'acx|at76|ath|b43|bcm|CX|eth|ipw|irmware|isl|lbtf|ndiswrapper|NPE|ound|p54|prism|rtl|rt2|rt3|usb|witch|wl'; iwconfig; cat /etc/modprobe.d/* | egrep 'acx|at76|ath|b43|bcm|CX|eth|ipw|irmware|isl|lbtf|ndiswrapper|NPE|p54|prism|rtl|rt2|rt3|witch|wl'; sudo hwinfo --netcard ; cat /var/lib/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.state; sudo lsmod

lo Interface doesn't support scanning.

eth0 Interface doesn't support scanning.

wlan0 Interface doesn't support scanning : Network is down

auto lo
iface lo inet loopback

DISTRIB_ID=Ubuntu
DISTRIB_RELEASE=11.04
DISTRIB_CODENAME=natty
DISTRIB_DESCRIPTION="Ubuntu 11.04"
00:00.0 Host bridge [0600]: Intel Corporation 82915G/P/GV/GL/PL/910GL Memory Controller Hub [8086:2580] (rev 04)
00:01.0 PCI bridge [0604]: Intel Corporation 82915G/P/GV/GL/PL/910GL PCI Express Root Port [8086:2581] (rev 04)
00:1c.0 PCI bridge [0604]: Intel Corporation 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) PCI Express Port 1 [8086:2660] (rev 03)
00:1d.0 USB Controller [0c03]: Intel Corporation 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) USB UHCI #1 [8086:2658] (rev 03)
00:1d.1 USB Controller [0c03]: Intel Corporation 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) USB UHCI #2 [8086:2659] (rev 03)
00:1d.2 USB Controller [0c03]: Intel Corporation 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) USB UHCI #3 [8086:265a] (rev 03)
00:1d.3 USB Controller [0c03]: Intel Corporation 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) USB UHCI #4 [8086:265b] (rev 03)
00:1d.7 USB Controller [0c03]: Intel Corporation 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) USB2 EHCI Controller [8086:265c] (rev 03)
00:1e.0 PCI bridge [0604]: Intel Corporation 82801 PCI Bridge [8086:244e] (rev d3)
00:1e.2 Multimedia audio controller [0401]: Intel Corporation 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) AC'97 Audio Controller [8086:266e] (rev 03)
00:1e.3 Modem [0703]: Intel Corporation 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) AC'97 Modem Controller [8086:266d] (rev 03)
00:1f.0 ISA bridge [0601]: Intel Corporation 82801FB/FR (ICH6/ICH6R) LPC Interface Bridge [8086:2640] (rev 03)
00:1f.1 IDE interface [0101]: Intel Corporation 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) IDE Controller [8086:266f] (rev 03)
00:1f.3 SMBus [0c05]: Intel Corporation 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) SMBus Controller [8086:266a] (rev 03)
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: ATI Technologies Inc M24 1P [Radeon Mobility X600] [1002:3150]
0b:00.0 CardBus bridge [0607]: Texas Instruments PCIxx21/x515 Cardbus Controller [104c:8031]
0b:00.2 FireWire (IEEE 1394) [0c00]: Texas Instruments OHCI Compliant IEEE 1394 Host Controller [104c:8032]
0b:00.3 Mass storage controller [0180]: Texas Instruments PCIxx21 Integrated FlashMedia Controller [104c:8033]
0b:00.4 SD Host controller [0805]: Texas Instruments PCI6411/6421/6611/6621/7411/7421/7611/7621 Secure Digital Controller [104c:8034]
0b:02.0 Ethernet controller [0200]: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL-8139/8139C/8139C+ [10ec:8139] (rev 10)
0b:03.0 Network controller [0280]: Broadcom Corporation BCM4306 802.11b/g Wireless LAN Controller [14e4:4320] (rev 03)
Bus 005 Device 003: ID 046d:c016 Logitech, Inc. Optical Wheel Mouse
Bus 005 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 002 Device 002: ID 03f0:011d Hewlett-Packard Integrated Bluetooth Module
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
H/W path Device Class Description
=============================================================
                                   system Notebook
/0 bus 3082
/0/0 memory 104KiB BIOS
/0/4 processor Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.20GHz
/0/4/5 memory 16KiB L1 cache
/0/4/6 memory 2MiB L2 cache
/0/4/0.1 processor Logical CPU
/0/4/0.2 processor Logical CPU
/0/a memory 2GiB System Memory
/0/a/0 memory 1GiB DIMM DDR Synchronous
/0/a/1 memory 1GiB DIMM DDR Synchronous
/0/100 bridge 82915G/P/GV/GL/PL/910GL Memory Controller Hub
/0/100/1 bridge 82915G/P/GV/GL/PL/910GL PCI Express Root Port
/0/100/1/0 display M24 1P [Radeon Mobility X600]
/0/100/1c bridge 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) PCI Express Port 1
/0/100/1d bus 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) USB UHCI #1
/0/100/1d.1 bus 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) USB UHCI #2
/0/100/1d.2 bus 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) USB UHCI #3
/0/100/1d.3 bus 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) USB UHCI #4
/0/100/1d.7 bus 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) USB2 EHCI Controller
/0/100/1e bridge 82801 PCI Bridge
/0/100/1e/0 bridge PCIxx21/x515 Cardbus Controller
/0/100/1e/0.2 bus OHCI Compliant IEEE 1394 Host Controller
/0/100/1e/0.3 storage PCIxx21 Integrated FlashMedia Controller
/0/100/1e/0.4 generic PCI6411/6421/6611/6621/7411/7421/7611/7621 Secure Digital Controller
/0/100/1e/2 eth0 network RTL-8139/8139C/8139C+
/0/100/1e/3 network BCM4306 802.11b/g Wireless LAN Controller
/0/100/1e.2 multimedia 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) AC'97 Audio Controller
/0/100/1e.3 communication 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) AC'97 Modem Controller
/0/100/1f bridge 82801FB/FR (ICH6/ICH6R) LPC Interface Bridge
/0/100/1f.1 scsi0 storage 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) IDE Controller
/0/100/1f.1/0.0.0 /dev/sda disk 80GB TOSHIBA MK8026GA
/0/100/1f.1/0.0.0/1 /dev/sda1 volume 72GiB EXT4 volume
/0/100/1f.1/0.0.0/2 /dev/sda2 volume 2045MiB Extended partition
/0/100/1f.1/0.0.0/2/5 /dev/sda5 volume 2045MiB Linux swap / Solaris partition
/0/100/1f.1/0.1.0 /dev/cdrom disk DVDRAM GSA-4084N
/0/100/1f.3 bus 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) SMBus Controller
/1 system
/2 wlan0 network Wireless interface
Linux simo-Pavilion-zd8000-PV299PA-ABG 2.6.38-11-generic #48-Ubuntu SMP Fri Jul 29 19:05:14 UTC 2011 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux
[ 0.000000] DMI: Hewlett-Packard Pavilion zd8000 (PV299PA#ABG) /3082, BIOS F.22 02/23/2005
[ 0.000000] found SMP MP-table at [c00f7a70] f7a70
[ 0.220112] ACPI: No dock devices found.
[ 0.220118] HEST: Table not found.
[ 0.221911] ACPI Error: Method parse/execution failed [\_SB_.PCI0._OSC] (Node f3c21d20), AE_ALREADY_EXISTS (20110112/psparse-536)
[ 0.221930] ACPI: Marking method _OSC as Serialized because of AE_ALREADY_EXISTS error
[ 0.229513] ACPI Error: Method parse/execution failed [\_SB_.PCI0._OSC] (Node f3c21d20), AE_ALREADY_EXISTS (20110112/psparse-536)
[ 0.229700] ACPI Error: Method parse/execution failed [\_SB_.PCI0._OSC] (Node f3c21d20), AE_ALREADY_EXISTS (20110112/psparse-536)
[ 0.240577] usbcore: registered new interface driver usbfs
[ 0.240608] usbcore: registered new interface driver hub
[ 0.240677] usbcore: registered new device driver usb
[ 0.248365] Switching to clocksource hpet
[ 0.251120] Switched to NOHz mode on CPU #0
[ 0.251207] Switched to NOHz mode on CPU #1
[ 0.269922] pnp: PnP ACPI: found 9 devices
[ 0.336728] input: Lid Switch as /devices/LNXSYSTM:00/device:00/PNP0C0D:00/input/input0
[ 0.488409] ACPI: Lid Switch [LID0]
[ 0.492922] ERST: Table is not found!
[ 0.846929] isapnp: No Plug & Play device found
[ 0.882962] i2c-core: driver [adp5520] using legacy suspend method
[ 0.882966] i2c-core: driver [adp5520] using legacy resume method
[ 0.904247] hub 1-0:1.0: USB hub found
[ 0.904818] hub 2-0:1.0: USB hub found
[ 0.905302] hub 3-0:1.0: USB hub found
[ 0.908280] hub 4-0:1.0: USB hub found
[ 0.908773] hub 5-0:1.0: USB hub found
[ 0.912903] device-mapper: multipath: version 1.2.0 loaded
[ 0.912910] device-mapper: multipath round-robin: version 1.0.0 loaded
[ 0.915550] BIOS EDD facility v0.16 2004-Jun-25, 0 devices found
[ 1.308082] Switching to clocksource tsc
[ 1.404045] usb 5-1: new low speed USB device using uhci_hcd and address 2
[ 1.529242] 8139too 0000:0b:02.0: eth0: RealTek RTL8139 at 0x5000, 00:c0:9f:8d:d0:19, IRQ 20
[ 1.529713] b43-pci-bridge 0000:0b:03.0: enabling device (0000 -> 0002)
[ 1.529729] b43-pci-bridge 0000:0b:03.0: PCI INT A -> GSI 17 (level, low) -> IRQ 17
[ 1.529787] ssb: Core 0 found: ChipCommon (cc 0x800, rev 0x04, vendor 0x4243)
[ 1.529799] ssb: Core 1 found: IEEE 802.11 (cc 0x812, rev 0x05, vendor 0x4243)
[ 1.529809] ssb: Core 2 found: PCMCIA (cc 0x80D, rev 0x02, vendor 0x4243)
[ 1.529820] ssb: Core 3 found: V90 (cc 0x807, rev 0x02, vendor 0x4243)
[ 1.529831] ssb: Core 4 found: PCI (cc 0x804, rev 0x09, vendor 0x4243)
[ 1.544437] ssb: Sonics Silicon Backplane found on PCI device 0000:0b:03.0
[ 1.544684] sdhci-pci 0000:0b:00.4: SDHCI controller found [104c:8034] (rev 0)
[ 1.544770] mmc0: no vmmc regulator found
[ 1.545025] mmc1: no vmmc regulator found
[ 1.545236] mmc2: no vmmc regulator found
[ 1.658934] input: Logitech Optical USB Mouse as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.3/usb5/5-1/5-1:1.0/input/input6
[ 1.659364] generic-usb 0003:046D:C016.0001: input,hidraw0: USB HID v1.10 Mouse [Logitech Optical USB Mouse] on usb-0000:00:1d.3-1/input0
[ 1.659739] usbcore: registered new interface driver usbhid
[ 1.659745] usbhid: USB HID core driver
[ 1.719737] Console: switching to colour frame buffer device 180x56
[ 11.295672] lp: driver loaded but no devices found
[ 11.965923] eth0: link up, 100Mbps, full-duplex, lpa 0x45E1
[ 12.501189] yenta_cardbus 0000:0b:00.0: CardBus bridge found [103c:3082]
[ 13.137174] b43-phy0: Broadcom 4306 WLAN found (core revision 5)
[ 13.195784] Registered led device: b43-phy0::tx
[ 13.195969] Registered led device: b43-phy0::rx
[ 13.196487] Registered led device: b43-phy0::radio
[ 13.196584] Broadcom 43xx driver loaded [ Features: PNL, Firmware-ID: FW13 ]
[ 22.184017] eth0: no IPv6 routers present
[ 187.384048] usb 2-1: new full speed USB device using uhci_hcd and address 2
[ 187.698294] usbcore: registered new interface driver btusb
[ 206.052791] b43-phy0 ERROR: Firmware file "b43/ucode5.fw" not found
[ 206.052799] b43-phy0 ERROR: Firmware file "b43-open/ucode5.fw" not found
[ 206.052805] b43-phy0 ERROR: You must go to http://wireless.kernel.org/en/users/Drivers/b43#devicefirmware and download the correct firmware for this driver version. Please carefully read all instructions on this website.
[ 2087.832094] usb 5-1: USB disconnect, address 2
[ 2088.108026] usb 5-1: new low speed USB device using uhci_hcd and address 3
[ 2088.300545] input: Logitech Optical USB Mouse as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.3/usb5/5-1/5-1:1.0/input/input9
[ 2088.301086] generic-usb 0003:046D:C016.0002: input,hidraw0: USB HID v1.10 Mouse [Logitech Optical USB Mouse] on usb-0000:00:1d.3-1/input0
lo no wireless extensions.

eth0 no wireless extensions.

wlan0 IEEE 802.11bg ESSID:off/any
          Mode:Managed Access Point: Not-Associated Tx-Power=0 dBm
          Retry long limit:7 RTS thr:off Fragment thr:off
          Power Management:off

# which ath5k cannot recover. To prevent this condition, stop
blacklist ath_pci
blacklist eth1394
# replaced by p54pci
blacklist prism54
# replaced by b43 and ssb.
blacklist bcm43xx
blacklist twl4030_wdt
> hal.1: read hal dataprocess 3987: arguments to dbus_move_error() were incorrect, assertion "(dest) == NULL || !dbus_error_is_set ((dest))" failed in file dbus-errors.c line 280.
This is normally a bug in some application using the D-Bus library.
libhal.c 3483 : Error unsubscribing to signals, error=The name org.freedesktop.Hal was not provided by any .service files
27: PCI b02.0: 0200 Ethernet controller
  [Created at pci.318]
  Unique ID: rBUF.IhayYsrEvnD
  Parent ID: 6NW+.OBLw5o2GvV5
  SysFS ID: /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1e.0/0000:0b:02.0
  SysFS BusID: 0000:0b:02.0
  Hardware Class: network
  Model: "Realtek RTL-8139/8139C/8139C+"
  Vendor: pci 0x10ec "Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd."
  Device: pci 0x8139 "RTL-8139/8139C/8139C+"
  SubVendor: pci 0x103c "Hewlett-Packard Company"
  SubDevice: pci 0x3082
  Revision: 0x10
  Driver: "8139too"
  Driver Modules: "8139too"
  Device File: eth0
  I/O Ports: 0x5000-0x5fff (rw)
  Memory Range: 0xc8209400-0xc82094ff (rw,non-prefetchable)
  IRQ: 20 (8851 events)
  HW Address: 00:c0:9f:8d:d0:19
  Link detected: yes
  Module Alias: "pci:v000010ECd00008139sv0000103Csd00003082bc02sc00i00"
  Driver Info #0:
    Driver Status: 8139too is active
    Driver Activation Cmd: "modprobe 8139too"
  Driver Info #1:
    Driver Status: 8139cp is active
    Driver Activation Cmd: "modprobe 8139cp"
  Config Status: cfg=new, avail=yes, need=no, active=unknown
  Attached to: #16 (PCI bridge)

28: PCI b03.0: 0282 WLAN controller
  [Created at pci.318]
  Unique ID: y9sn.6WjBjQYcnn8
  Parent ID: 6NW+.OBLw5o2GvV5
  SysFS ID: /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1e.0/0000:0b:03.0
  SysFS BusID: 0000:0b:03.0
  Hardware Class: network
  Model: "Hewlett-Packard Company Broadcom 802.11b/g WLAN"
  Vendor: pci 0x14e4 "Broadcom"
  Device: pci 0x4320 "BCM4306 802.11b/g Wireless LAN Controller"
  SubVendor: pci 0x103c "Hewlett-Packard Company"
  SubDevice: pci 0x12fa "Broadcom 802.11b/g WLAN"
  Revision: 0x03
  Driver: "b43-pci-bridge"
  Driver Modules: "ssb"
  Device File: wlan0
  Features: WLAN
  Memory Range: 0xc8206000-0xc8207fff (rw,non-prefetchable)
  IRQ: 17 (no events)
  HW Address: 00:90:4b:ad:6b:90
  Link detected: no
  WLAN channels: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
  WLAN frequencies: 2.412 2.417 2.422 2.427 2.432 2.437 2.442 2.447 2.452 2.457 2.462 2.467 2.472 2.484
  WLAN encryption modes: WEP40 WEP104 TKIP CCMP
  WLAN authentication modes: open sharedkey wpa-psk wpa-eap
  Module Alias: "pci:v000014E4d00004320sv0000103Csd000012FAbc02sc80i00"
  Driver Info #0:
    Driver Status: ssb is active
    Driver Activation Cmd: "modprobe ssb"
  Config Status: cfg=new, avail=yes, need=no, active=unknown
  Attached to: #16 (PCI bridge)

[main]
NetworkingEnabled=true
WirelessEnabled=true
WWANEnabled=true
Module Size Used by
rfcomm 38125 12
sco 17827 2
bnep 17785 2
l2cap 48656 16 rfcomm,bnep
btusb 18160 2
bluetooth 65493 9 rfcomm,sco,bnep,l2cap,btusb
parport_pc 32111 0
ppdev 12849 0
dm_crypt 22463 0
arc4 12473 2
b43 296610 0
snd_intel8x0 33213 2
mac80211 257001 1 b43
snd_ac97_codec 105614 1 snd_intel8x0
ac97_bus 12642 1 snd_ac97_codec
snd_pcm 80042 2 snd_intel8x0,snd_ac97_codec
joydev 17322 0
hp_wmi 13418 0
sparse_keymap 13666 1 hp_wmi
pcmcia 39671 0
cfg80211 156212 2 b43,mac80211
tifm_7xx1 12898 0
snd_seq_midi 13132 0
yenta_socket 27230 0
snd_rawmidi 25269 1 snd_seq_midi
snd_seq_midi_event 14475 1 snd_seq_midi
snd_seq 51291 2 snd_seq_midi,snd_seq_midi_event
snd_timer 28659 2 snd_pcm,snd_seq
snd_seq_device 14110 3 snd_seq_midi,snd_rawmidi,snd_seq
tifm_core 15040 1 tifm_7xx1
snd 55295 11 snd_intel8x0,snd_ac97_codec,snd_pcm,snd_rawmidi,snd_seq,snd_timer,snd_seq_device
pcmcia_rsrc 18292 1 yenta_socket
pcmcia_core 21505 3 pcmcia,yenta_socket,pcmcia_rsrc
psmouse 73312 0
soundcore 12600 1 snd
serio_raw 12990 0
snd_page_alloc 14073 2 snd_intel8x0,snd_pcm
lp 13349 0
parport 36746 3 parport_pc,ppdev,lp
radeon 900494 3
usbhid 41704 0
hid 77084 1 usbhid
ttm 65184 1 radeon
drm_kms_helper 40745 1 radeon
firewire_ohci 31504 0
sdhci_pci 13623 0
firewire_core 56138 1 firewire_ohci
8139too 23208 0
drm 184164 5 radeon,ttm,drm_kms_helper
ssb 45942 1 b43
sdhci 22720 1 sdhci_pci
8139cp 22497 0
video 18951 0
crc_itu_t 12627 1 firewire_core
i2c_algo_bit 13184 1 radeon
simo@simo-Pavilion-zd8000-PV299PA-ABG:~$

I tried to follow the link mentioned in the following output;
[ 206.052791] b43-phy0 ERROR: Firmware file "b43/ucode5.fw" not found
[ 206.052799] b43-phy0 ERROR: Firmware file "b43-open/ucode5.fw" not found
[ 206.052805] b43-phy0 ERROR: You must go to http://wireless.kernel.org/en/users/Drivers/b43#devicefirmware and download the correct firmware for this driver version. Please carefully read all instructions on this website.
 - but the URL points to a broken link and I have not been able to track the target data.

I have also tried installing a D-link pcmcia adapter - while I did get this connected once I had problems with it and would prefer to use the onboard card if possible for simplicity as well as power reasons. This machine worked well on wireless under windows so I am fairly confident the onboard card is working OK.

Your assistance is greatly appreciated, with thanks,

Bill

After several hours of searching I found an answer that worked for me - the solution (as documented at http://wiki.debian.org/bcm43xx) was to install the firmware using the "firmware-b43-installer", I was not aware the driver (which was automaticaly, and correctly installed at build time), required this additional, manual process.

The amount of support information available and the variation in its technical content and presentation as well as the breadth of systems covered is going to take some getting used to.

Please change the state of this question to solved, thanks.

Bill

Question information

Language:
English Edit question
Status:
Solved
For:
Ubuntu b43-fwcutter Edit question
Assignee:
No assignee Edit question
Solved by:
Eliah Kagan
Solved:
Last query:
Last reply:
Revision history for this message
Best Eliah Kagan (degeneracypressure) said :
#1

Only you can mark your question as Solved. You can do this at https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/b43-fwcutter/+question/171592.

By the way, a site like Ubuntu Forums may be more appropriate for posts such as this. I am not saying you should delete content from this post or request that it be marked Invalid. Instead, you may want to consider posting it there as well. (Read the relevant forum rules first, of course -- I don't currently use Ubuntu Forums, so I cannot advise you in detail about posting already-answered questions there.)

You said you used "firmware-b4-installer". Do you mean "firmware-b43-installer"?

Revision history for this message
Bill Muller (bmuller01) said :
#2

Eliah,

Yes the porblem has been solved, I did use the "firmware-b43-installer" (sorry - my typo).

As this is my first post to a community forum I was not aware I needed to mark the question as answered - which has now been done.

Thanks for your reply,

Bill

Revision history for this message
Eliah Kagan (degeneracypressure) said :
#3

To maximize its usefulness, I just edited your question's description so it says "firmware-b43-installer" instead of "firmware-b4-installer". (I did not make any other changes.)

Revision history for this message
Eliah Kagan (degeneracypressure) said :
#4

(By the way, you can also edit your own questions, and those of others, though when editing any question, whether or not it is your own, you should generally strive to avoid removing information, and editing a question should be avoided when it would make more sense to post a reply.)