No sound on Netbook running Ubuntu 10.04
I originally installed Ubuntu 8 just for fun, but i then updated to 10.04, hoping it would fix the "no sound" issue. The sound "card" is a IDT High-Definition Audio, and i haven't found any luck whilst searching. If you need more info, ill supply as much as i can. The netbook itself is a HP Mini 1101.
I am completely new to Linux, so please have patience, but i am pretty computer-literate.
Question information
- Language:
- English Edit question
- Status:
- Solved
- Assignee:
- No assignee Edit question
- Solved by:
- actionparsnip
- Solved:
- Last query:
- Last reply:
Revision history for this message
|
#1 |
What is the output of:
wget -O alsa-info.sh http://
Thanks
Revision history for this message
|
#2 |
Revision history for this message
|
#3 |
!!#####
!!ALSA Information Script v 0.4.61
!!#####
!!Script ran on: Sat Jun 23 17:27:52 UTC 2012
!!Linux Distribution
!!-----
Ubuntu 10.04.4 LTS \n \l DISTRIB_ID=Ubuntu DISTRIB_
!!DMI Information
!!---------------
Manufacturer: Hewlett-Packard
Product Name: HP Mini 1101
Product Version: 03AA10000020000
Firmware Version: 308F0 Ver. F.18
!!Kernel Information
!!-----
Kernel release: 2.6.32-41-generic
Operating System: GNU/Linux
Architecture: i686
Processor: unknown
SMP Enabled: Yes
!!ALSA Version
!!------------
Driver version: 1.0.21
Library version: 1.0.22
Utilities version: 1.0.22
!!Loaded ALSA modules
!!-----
snd_hda_intel
!!Sound Servers on this system
!!-----
Pulseaudio:
Installed - Yes (/usr/bin/
Running - Yes
ESound Daemon:
Installed - Yes (/usr/bin/esd)
Running - No
!!Soundcards recognised by ALSA
!!-----
0 [Intel ]: HDA-Intel - HDA Intel
!!PCI Soundcards installed in the system
!!-----
00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation N10/ICH 7 Family High Definition Audio Controller (rev 02)
!!Advanced information - PCI Vendor/
!!-----
00:1b.0 0403: 8086:27d8 (rev 02)
Subsystem: 103c:308f
--
Prefetchable memory behind bridge: 000000004000000
Secondary status: 66MHz- FastB2B- ParErr- DEVSEL=fast >TAbort- <TAbort- <MAbort- <SERR- <PERR-
--
Prefetchable memory behind bridge: 000000004020000
Secondary status: 66MHz- FastB2B- ParErr- DEVSEL=fast >TAbort- <TAbort- <MAbort- <SERR- <PERR-
!!Modprobe options (Sound related)
!!-----
snd-atiixp-modem: index=-2
snd-intel8x0m: index=-2
snd-via82xx-modem: index=-2
snd-usb-audio: index=-2
snd-usb-usx2y: index=-2
snd-usb-caiaq: index=-2
snd-cmipci: mpu_port=0x330 fm_port=0x388
snd-hda-intel: enable_msi=1
snd-atiixp-modem: index=-2
snd-intel8x0m: index=-2
snd-via82xx-modem: index=-2
snd-usb-audio: index=-2
snd-usb-us122l: index=-2
snd-usb-usx2y: index=-2
snd-usb-caiaq: index=-2
snd-cmipci: mpu_port=0x330 fm_port=0x388
snd-pcsp: index=-2
!!Loaded sound module options
!!-----
!!Module: snd_hda_intel
bdl_pos_adj : 1,-1,-1,
enable : Y,Y,Y,Y,
enable_msi : 1
id : <NULL>,
index : -1,-1,-
model : <NULL>,
patch : <NULL>,
position_fix : 0,0,0,0,
power_save : 0
power_
probe_mask : -1,-1,-
probe_only : N,N,N,N,
single_cmd : N
!!HDA-Intel Codec information
!!-----
--startcollapse--
Codec: IDT 92HD81B1X5
Address: 0
Function Id: 0x1
Vendor Id: 0x111d7605
Subsystem Id: 0x103c308f
Revision Id: 0x100402
No Modem Function Group found
Default PCM:
rates [0x5e0]: 44100 48000 88200 96000 192000
bits [0xe]: 16 20 24
formats [0x1]: PCM
Default Amp-In caps: ofs=0x00, nsteps=0x03, stepsize=0x27, mute=0
Default Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x7f, nsteps=0x7f, stepsize=0x02, mute=1
GPIO: io=3, o=0, i=0, unsolicited=1, wake=1
IO[0]: enable=0, dir=0, wake=0, sticky=0, data=0, unsol=0
IO[1]: enable=0, dir=0, wake=0, sticky=0, data=0, unsol=0
IO[2]: enable=0, dir=0, wake=0, sticky=0, data=0, unsol=0
Power-Map: 0x00
Node 0x0a [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400583: Stereo Amp-In
Amp-In caps: N/A
Amp-In vals: [0x02 0x02]
Pincap 0x0001173c: IN OUT HP EAPD Detect
Vref caps: HIZ 50 GRD 80
EAPD 0x2: EAPD
Pin Default 0x04a11020: [Jack] Mic at Ext Right
Conn = 1/8, Color = Black
DefAssociation = 0x2, Sequence = 0x0
Pin-ctls: 0x24: IN VREF_80
Unsolicited: tag=02, enabled=1
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Connection: 3
0x13* 0x14 0x1c
Node 0x0b [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400581: Stereo
Pincap 0x0001001c: OUT HP EAPD Detect
EAPD 0x2: EAPD
Pin Default 0x0421101f: [Jack] HP Out at Ext Right
Conn = 1/8, Color = Black
DefAssociation = 0x1, Sequence = 0xf
Pin-ctls: 0x00:
Unsolicited: tag=01, enabled=1
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Connection: 3
0x13 0x14* 0x1c
Node 0x0c [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400583: Stereo Amp-In
Amp-In caps: N/A
Amp-In vals: [0x03 0x03]
Pincap 0x00011734: IN OUT EAPD Detect
Vref caps: HIZ 50 GRD 80
EAPD 0x2: EAPD
Pin Default 0x90a7012e: [Fixed] Mic at Int N/A
Conn = Analog, Color = Unknown
DefAssociation = 0x2, Sequence = 0xe
Misc = NO_PRESENCE
Pin-ctls: 0x24: IN VREF_80
Unsolicited: tag=00, enabled=0
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Connection: 3
0x13* 0x14 0x1c
Node 0x0d [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400501: Stereo
Pincap 0x00010050: OUT EAPD Balanced
EAPD 0x2: EAPD
Pin Default 0x90170110: [Fixed] Speaker at Int N/A
Conn = Analog, Color = Unknown
DefAssociation = 0x1, Sequence = 0x0
Misc = NO_PRESENCE
Pin-ctls: 0x40: OUT
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Connection: 3
0x13* 0x14 0x1c
Node 0x0e [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400583: Stereo Amp-In
Amp-In caps: N/A
Amp-In vals: [0x00 0x00]
Pincap 0x00010034: IN OUT EAPD Detect
EAPD 0x2: EAPD
Pin Default 0x400000f1: [N/A] Line Out at Ext N/A
Conn = Unknown, Color = Unknown
DefAssociation = 0xf, Sequence = 0x1
Pin-ctls: 0x00:
Unsolicited: tag=00, enabled=0
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Connection: 3
0x13 0x14 0x1c*
Node 0x0f [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400583: Stereo Amp-In
Amp-In caps: N/A
Amp-In vals: [0x00 0x00]
Pincap 0x00010034: IN OUT EAPD Detect
EAPD 0x2: EAPD
Pin Default 0x400000f2: [N/A] Line Out at Ext N/A
Conn = Unknown, Color = Unknown
DefAssociation = 0xf, Sequence = 0x2
Pin-ctls: 0x00:
Unsolicited: tag=00, enabled=0
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Connection: 3
0x13* 0x14 0x1c
Node 0x10 [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400500: Mono
Pincap 0x00000010: OUT
Pin Default 0x400000f3: [N/A] Line Out at Ext N/A
Conn = Unknown, Color = Unknown
DefAssociation = 0xf, Sequence = 0x3
Pin-ctls: 0x00:
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Connection: 1
0x1a
Node 0x11 [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400483: Stereo Amp-In
Amp-In caps: N/A
Amp-In vals: [0x00 0x00]
Pincap 0x00000024: IN Detect
Pin Default 0x400000f4: [N/A] Line Out at Ext N/A
Conn = Unknown, Color = Unknown
DefAssociation = 0xf, Sequence = 0x4
Pin-ctls: 0x00:
Unsolicited: tag=00, enabled=0
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Node 0x12 [Vendor Defined Widget] wcaps 0xf00503: Stereo Amp-In
Amp-In caps: N/A
Amp-In vals: [0x00 0x00]
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Connection: 1
0x20
Node 0x13 [Audio Output] wcaps 0xd0c05: Stereo Amp-Out R/L
Amp-Out caps: N/A
Amp-Out vals: [0x00 0x00]
Converter: stream=0, channel=0
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Delay: 13 samples
Node 0x14 [Audio Output] wcaps 0xd0c05: Stereo Amp-Out R/L
Amp-Out caps: N/A
Amp-Out vals: [0x00 0x00]
Converter: stream=0, channel=0
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Delay: 13 samples
Node 0x15 [Audio Input] wcaps 0x1d0541: Stereo
Converter: stream=0, channel=0
SDI-Select: 0
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Delay: 13 samples
Connection: 1
0x17
Processing caps: benign=0, ncoeff=0
Node 0x16 [Audio Input] wcaps 0x1d0541: Stereo
Converter: stream=0, channel=0
SDI-Select: 0
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Delay: 13 samples
Connection: 1
0x18
Processing caps: benign=0, ncoeff=0
Node 0x17 [Audio Selector] wcaps 0x300d0d: Stereo Amp-Out R/L
Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x00, nsteps=0x0f, stepsize=0x05, mute=1
Amp-Out vals: [0x0f 0x0f]
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Connection: 7
0x0c* 0x0e 0x0f 0x1b 0x11 0x12 0x0a
Node 0x18 [Audio Selector] wcaps 0x300d0d: Stereo Amp-Out R/L
Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x00, nsteps=0x0f, stepsize=0x05, mute=1
Amp-Out vals: [0x80 0x80]
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Connection: 7
0x0c* 0x0e 0x0f 0x1b 0x11 0x12 0x0a
Node 0x19 [Audio Selector] wcaps 0x300501: Stereo
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Connection: 3
0x13* 0x14 0x1c
Node 0x1a [Audio Mixer] wcaps 0x200500: Mono
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Connection: 1
0x19
Node 0x1b [Audio Mixer] wcaps 0x20050b: Stereo Amp-In
Amp-In caps: ofs=0x17, nsteps=0x1f, stepsize=0x05, mute=1
Amp-In vals: [0x97 0x97] [0x97 0x97] [0x97 0x97] [0x97 0x97] [0x97 0x97] [0x97 0x97]
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Connection: 6
0x0c 0x0e 0x0f 0x13 0x14 0x0a
Node 0x1c [Audio Selector] wcaps 0x30050d: Stereo Amp-Out
Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x1f, nsteps=0x1f, stepsize=0x05, mute=1
Amp-Out vals: [0x9f 0x9f]
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Connection: 1
0x1b
Node 0x1d [Audio Output] wcaps 0x4061d: Stereo Digital Amp-Out
Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x00, nsteps=0x00, stepsize=0x00, mute=1
Amp-Out vals: [0x00 0x00]
Converter: stream=0, channel=0
Digital:
Digital category: 0x0
PCM:
rates [0x5e0]: 44100 48000 88200 96000 192000
bits [0xe]: 16 20 24
formats [0x5]: PCM AC3
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Delay: 4 samples
Node 0x1e [Audio Output] wcaps 0x4061d: Stereo Digital Amp-Out
Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x00, nsteps=0x00, stepsize=0x00, mute=1
Amp-Out vals: [0x00 0x00]
Converter: stream=0, channel=0
Digital:
Digital category: 0x0
PCM:
rates [0x5e0]: 44100 48000 88200 96000 192000
bits [0xe]: 16 20 24
formats [0x5]: PCM AC3
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Delay: 4 samples
Node 0x1f [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400781: Stereo Digital
Pincap 0x00000014: OUT Detect
Pin Default 0x400000f5: [N/A] Line Out at Ext N/A
Conn = Unknown, Color = Unknown
DefAssociation = 0xf, Sequence = 0x5
Pin-ctls: 0x00:
Unsolicited: tag=00, enabled=0
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Connection: 1
0x1d
Node 0x20 [Pin Complex] wcaps 0x400781: Stereo Digital
Pincap 0x00000034: IN OUT Detect
Pin Default 0x400000f6: [N/A] Line Out at Ext N/A
Conn = Unknown, Color = Unknown
DefAssociation = 0xf, Sequence = 0x6
Pin-ctls: 0x00:
Unsolicited: tag=00, enabled=0
Power: setting=D0, actual=D0
Connection: 1
0x1e
Node 0x21 [Beep Generator Widget] wcaps 0x70000c: Mono Amp-Out
Amp-Out caps: ofs=0x03, nsteps=0x03, stepsize=0x17, mute=1
Amp-Out vals: [0x00]
Node 0x22 [Vendor Defined Widget] wcaps 0xf00000: Mono
--endcollapse--
!!ALSA Device nodes
!!-----------------
crw-rw---- 1 root audio 116, 7 Jun 23 13:20 /dev/snd/controlC0
crw-rw---- 1 root audio 116, 6 Jun 23 13:20 /dev/snd/hwC0D0
crw-rw---- 1 root audio 116, 5 Jun 23 13:25 /dev/snd/pcmC0D0c
crw-rw---- 1 root audio 116, 4 Jun 23 13:25 /dev/snd/pcmC0D0p
crw-rw---- 1 root audio 116, 3 Jun 23 13:20 /dev/snd/seq
crw-rw---- 1 root audio 116, 2 Jun 23 13:20 /dev/snd/timer
/dev/snd/by-path:
total 0
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 60 Jun 23 13:20 .
drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 180 Jun 23 13:20 ..
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 12 Jun 23 13:20 pci-0000:00:1b.0 -> ../controlC0
!!Aplay/Arecord output
!!-----
APLAY
**** List of PLAYBACK Hardware Devices ****
card 0: Intel [HDA Intel], device 0: STAC92xx Analog [STAC92xx Analog]
Subdevices: 1/1
Subdevice #0: subdevice #0
ARECORD
**** List of CAPTURE Hardware Devices ****
card 0: Intel [HDA Intel], device 0: STAC92xx Analog [STAC92xx Analog]
Subdevices: 1/1
Subdevice #0: subdevice #0
!!Amixer output
!!-------------
!!-------Mixer controls for card 0 [Intel]
Card hw:0 'Intel'/'HDA Intel at 0xfe938000 irq 26'
Mixer name : 'IDT 92HD81B1X5'
Components : 'HDA:111d7605,
Controls : 15
Simple ctrls : 10
Simple mixer control 'Master',0
Capabilities: pvolume pvolume-joined pswitch pswitch-joined penum
Playback channels: Mono
Limits: Playback 0 - 64
Mono: Playback 0 [0%] [-48.00dB] [on]
Simple mixer control 'Headphone',0
Capabilities: pvolume pswitch penum
Playback channels: Front Left - Front Right
Limits: Playback 0 - 64
Mono:
Front Left: Playback 64 [100%] [0.00dB] [on]
Front Right: Playback 64 [100%] [0.00dB] [on]
Simple mixer control 'Speaker',0
Capabilities: pvolume pswitch penum
Playback channels: Front Left - Front Right
Limits: Playback 0 - 64
Mono:
Front Left: Playback 52 [81%] [-9.00dB] [on]
Front Right: Playback 52 [81%] [-9.00dB] [on]
Simple mixer control 'PCM',0
Capabilities: pvolume penum
Playback channels: Front Left - Front Right
Limits: Playback 0 - 255
Mono:
Front Left: Playback 255 [100%] [0.00dB]
Front Right: Playback 255 [100%] [0.00dB]
Simple mixer control 'Front Mic',0
Capabilities: cvolume penum
Capture channels: Front Left - Front Right
Limits: Capture 0 - 3
Front Left: Capture 3 [100%] [30.00dB]
Front Right: Capture 3 [100%] [30.00dB]
Simple mixer control 'Mic',0
Capabilities: cvolume penum
Capture channels: Front Left - Front Right
Limits: Capture 0 - 3
Front Left: Capture 2 [67%] [20.00dB]
Front Right: Capture 2 [67%] [20.00dB]
Simple mixer control 'Mic Jack Mode',0
Capabilities: enum
Items: 'Mic In' 'Line In'
Item0: 'Mic In'
Simple mixer control 'Capture',0
Capabilities: cvolume cswitch penum
Capture channels: Front Left - Front Right
Limits: Capture 0 - 15
Front Left: Capture 15 [100%] [22.50dB] [on]
Front Right: Capture 15 [100%] [22.50dB] [on]
Simple mixer control 'Digital',0
Capabilities: cvolume penum
Capture channels: Front Left - Front Right
Limits: Capture 0 - 120
Front Left: Capture 60 [50%] [0.00dB]
Front Right: Capture 60 [50%] [0.00dB]
Simple mixer control 'PC Beep',0
Capabilities: pvolume pvolume-joined pswitch pswitch-joined penum
Playback channels: Mono
Limits: Playback 0 - 3
Mono: Playback 0 [0%] [-18.00dB] [off]
!!Alsactl output
!!--------------
--startcollapse--
state.Intel {
control.1 {
comment.access 'read write'
comment.type INTEGER
comment.count 2
comment.range '0 - 64'
comment.dbmin -4800
comment.dbmax 0
iface MIXER
name 'Speaker Playback Volume'
value.0 52
value.1 52
}
control.2 {
comment.access 'read write'
comment.type BOOLEAN
comment.count 2
iface MIXER
name 'Speaker Playback Switch'
value.0 true
value.1 true
}
control.3 {
comment.access 'read write'
comment.type ENUMERATED
comment.count 1
comment.item.0 'Mic In'
comment.item.1 'Line In'
iface MIXER
name 'Mic Jack Mode'
value 'Mic In'
}
control.4 {
comment.access 'read write'
comment.type BOOLEAN
comment.count 1
iface MIXER
name 'PC Beep Playback Switch'
value false
}
control.5 {
comment.access 'read write'
comment.type INTEGER
comment.count 1
comment.range '0 - 3'
comment.dbmin -1800
comment.dbmax 0
iface MIXER
name 'PC Beep Playback Volume'
value 0
}
control.6 {
comment.access 'read write'
comment.type INTEGER
comment.count 2
comment.range '0 - 64'
comment.dbmin -4800
comment.dbmax 0
iface MIXER
name 'Headphone Playback Volume'
value.0 64
value.1 64
}
control.7 {
comment.access 'read write'
comment.type BOOLEAN
comment.count 2
iface MIXER
name 'Headphone Playback Switch'
value.0 true
value.1 true
}
control.8 {
comment.access 'read write'
comment.type INTEGER
comment.count 2
comment.range '0 - 15'
comment.dbmin 0
comment.dbmax 2250
iface MIXER
name 'Capture Volume'
value.0 15
value.1 15
}
control.9 {
comment.access 'read write'
comment.type BOOLEAN
comment.count 2
iface MIXER
name 'Capture Switch'
value.0 true
value.1 true
}
control.10 {
comment.access 'read write'
comment.type INTEGER
comment.count 2
comment.range '0 - 3'
comment.dbmin 0
comment.dbmax 3000
iface MIXER
name 'Mic Capture Volume'
value.0 2
value.1 2
}
control.11 {
comment.access 'read write'
comment.type INTEGER
comment.count 2
comment.range '0 - 3'
comment.dbmin 0
comment.dbmax 3000
iface MIXER
name 'Front Mic Capture Volume'
value.0 3
value.1 3
}
control.12 {
comment.access 'read write'
comment.type INTEGER
comment.count 1
comment.range '0 - 64'
comment.dbmin -4800
comment.dbmax 0
iface MIXER
name 'Master Playback Volume'
value 0
}
control.13 {
comment.access 'read write'
comment.type BOOLEAN
comment.count 1
iface MIXER
name 'Master Playback Switch'
value true
}
control.14 {
comment.access 'read write user'
comment.type INTEGER
comment.count 2
comment.range '0 - 255'
comment.tlv '00000001000000
comment.dbmin -5100
comment.dbmax 0
iface MIXER
name 'PCM Playback Volume'
value.0 255
value.1 255
}
control.15 {
comment.access 'read write user'
comment.type INTEGER
comment.count 2
comment.range '0 - 120'
comment.tlv '00000001000000
comment.dbmin -3000
comment.dbmax 3000
iface MIXER
name 'Digital Capture Volume'
value.0 60
value.1 60
}
}
--endcollapse--
!!All Loaded Modules
!!-----
Module
nls_utf8
isofs
usb_storage
binfmt_misc
rfcomm
ppdev
sco
bridge
stp
bnep
l2cap
snd_hda_codec_idt
fbcon
tileblit
font
bitblit
softcursor
vga16fb
vgastate
snd_hda_intel
snd_hda_codec
snd_hwdep
snd_pcm_oss
snd_mixer_oss
joydev
snd_pcm
snd_seq_dummy
snd_seq_oss
snd_seq_midi
snd_rawmidi
snd_seq_midi_event
snd_seq
snd_timer
snd_seq_device
i915
lib80211_crypt_tkip
uvcvideo
drm_kms_helper
snd
videodev
v4l1_compat
drm
i2c_algo_bit
wl
intel_agp
btusb
bluetooth
psmouse
serio_raw
soundcore
video
atl1c
lib80211
agpgart
snd_page_alloc
output
lp
parport
!!Sysfs Files
!!-----------
/sys/class/
0x0a 0x04a11020
0x0b 0x0421101f
0x0c 0x90a7012e
0x0d 0x90170110
0x0e 0x400000f1
0x0f 0x400000f2
0x10 0x400000f3
0x11 0x400000f4
0x1f 0x400000f5
0x20 0x400000f6
/sys/class/
/sys/class/
/sys/class/
!!ALSA/HDA dmesg
!!--------------
[ 19.796732] [drm] Initialized i915 1.6.0 20080730 for 0000:00:02.0 on minor 0
[ 19.796832] HDA Intel 0000:00:1b.0: PCI INT A -> GSI 16 (level, low) -> IRQ 16
[ 19.796921] alloc irq_desc for 26 on node -1
[ 19.796927] alloc kstat_irqs on node -1
[ 19.797049] HDA Intel 0000:00:1b.0: irq 26 for MSI/MSI-X
[ 19.797104] HDA Intel 0000:00:1b.0: setting latency timer to 64
[ 19.811618] vga16fb: initializing
--
[ 20.024892] type=1505 audit(134047202
[ 20.026624] input: HDA Digital PCBeep as /devices/
[ 20.057892] input: HDA Intel Mic at Ext Right Jack as /devices/
[ 20.058175] input: HDA Intel HP Out at Ext Right Jack as /devices/
[ 20.313727] alloc irq_desc for 27 on node -1
Revision history for this message
|
#4 |
sudo add-apt-repository ppa:ubuntu-
Wait 10 seconds, then reboot
Revision history for this message
|
#5 |
That worked, thanks so much!!
Revision history for this message
|
#6 |
Thanks actionparsnip, that solved my question.
Revision history for this message
|
#7 |
Why such an OLD release, Lucid desktop support dies in April next year. Why did you not install Precise??
Revision history for this message
|
#8 |
im slowly upgrading to it, i just wanted to see the older ones first :)