Using lauchpad to state ideas which are abusive to others on sensitive subjects

Asked by Usama Akkad on 2010-04-01

Hello,

I'm really happy using Ubuntu and working with the community to make it better.
Ubuntu has a really nice community that should work always together.

on one of launchpad bugs I've found someone stating a very sensitive claims regarding one of the holiest citiyis on the Earth, Jerusalem (القدس)

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vte/+bug/263822/comments/17
stated that if he chose Jerusalem as a city he expect to see the Hebrew calender installed.

that statement is obviously promoting his idea of the Jewish ownership of the holy city.

well many Muslims and Arabs will disagree in that because the city was Arabic city for centuries
you may read this topic about the subject,
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/7726/quds

well I'm not asking the ownership of the city here in launchpad. I just want him to chose a different example city that doesn't have sensitivity and that it is not abusive to make such statements about.

I know this is a difficult subject to deal with. but I hope you consider the sensitivity of such issue to many people.

Question information

Language:
English Edit question
Status:
Solved
For:
Launchpad itself Edit question
Assignee:
No assignee Edit question
Solved by:
Usama Akkad
Solved:
2010-04-02
Last query:
2010-04-02
Last reply:
2010-04-02
Francis J. Lacoste (flacoste) said : #1

Hello Usama,

I understand that the status of Jerusalem is a very controversial topic. At a very much smaller scale, living in Montreal, I can appreciate that different people have completely different views on the history of their city. But I don't see any reason to edit or censor that comment. Disagreeing about a topic isn't the same thing as being offensive or abusive.

I suggest you contact first the user directly (use the 'Contact this user' directly) and explain your situation: i.e. that you disagree with his settings expectations given the controversy.

Since you both signed the Ubuntu Code of conduct, you could also take the issue to the Ubuntu Community Council if you think this is a violation of one of its principles.

WIth respect

Francis J. Lacoste (flacoste) said : #2

Hello Usama,

I understand that the status of Jerusalem is a very controversial topic. At a very much smaller scale, living in Montreal, I can appreciate that different people have completely different views on the history of their city. But I don't see any reason to edit or censor that comment. Disagreeing about a topic isn't the same thing as being offensive or abusive.

I suggest you contact first the user directly (use the 'Contact this user' directly) and explain your situation: i.e. that you disagree with his settings expectations given the controversy.

Since you both signed the Ubuntu Code of conduct, you could also take the issue to the Ubuntu Community Council if you think this is a violation of one of its principles.

WIth respect

Usama Akkad (damascene) said : #3

I've just contacted him and waiting for his respond here.

Yaron (sh-yaron) said : #4

As long as Jerusalem is the legal capital city of Israel I see no problem
Besides, we had such a harmony on the thread, how did we get to politics?
If you think i'm wrong I suggest you'll file a complaint against me for being a Jewish Israeli... see how that will work for you
I'm so ashamed we've got to this, I'm truly embarrased

Usama Akkad (damascene) said : #5

Looking at your launchpad Karma I thought this man will be likely different.

Jerusalem being the capital city of Israel is actually illegal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positions_on_Jerusalem

last time I checked the world didn't accept that yet.

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_181

Europe Affirms Support for a Corpus Separatum for Greater Jerusalem
http://www.fmep.org/reports/special-reports/israels-uncertain-victory-in-jerusalem/europe-affirms-support-for-a-corpus-separatum-for-greater-jerusalem

149 Reaction by Foreign Minister Sharon on the EU stand on Jerusalem- 11 March 1999
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Foreign%20Relations/Israels%20Foreign%20Relations%20since%201947/1998-1999/149%20Reaction%20by%20Foreign%20Minister%20Sharon%20on%20the%20EU

Jerusalem must be capital of both Israel and Palestine, Ban says
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=32762&Cr=jerusalem&Cr1

you have just been there for less than 60 years!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jerusalem

Solutions I see possible:

1.please, just accept your post to be edited and chose Tel Aviv instead.
2.me adding comment in the same bug with a link to this question stating that I disagree with your position.
3.we go to community console

Yaron (sh-yaron) said : #6

Look, this is a stupid argument and I don't think that some wikipedia articles will change my positions
Palestine is not a country thus Jerusalem can't be its capital city
Israel on the other side IS a country and Jerusalem IS concidered the capital of Israel

You can go and snitch to whoever you like, instead of focusing on development and cooperation between Arab speakers and Hebrew speakers you chose to argue and make our relationship even more tense, instead of being realistic and figuring that your complaints will change nothing in real life you braught the debate to the open source world

Quit being so emotional and start working, do you see any prolific cooperation coming after an idiotic argument like this?

And now my friend, with all do respect, please go to the community console, you like arguing with no cause, what difference will it make?

Ahmed M. Araby (araby-ahmed) said : #7

@Yaron It's not about you,and also not about Jewish , don't try this way
It's about Jerusalem(القدس)

Yaron (sh-yaron) said : #8

@Usama - No ultimatums please, you are an activist just like me, act properly

@Ahmed You are missing the whole point
The open source should be free of political interests, you chose to bring your personal political interests into the open source world instead of cooperating with Jewish people who have a different point of view
Despite the decision of the UN (To let the 2 sides decide who Jerusalem belongs to) most of the countries all over the world acknowledge Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and no open source discussion will change that

Instead of trying to make our relationship better and putting aside our political views (Like I did) you became emotional an irrational, quit whining and start working, we have a lot of work to do together and political arguments won't lead us there

Please guys, this is so out of line, if you want to argue go do it in some other place and let the open source activists work, we have no spare time or energies to invest in your political righteousness, keep it real, let it go

Whenever you'll realize you have a Hebrew speaking partner who wants to cooperate with you you are always welcome to come back and start cooperating, this argument is shameful and as a grown ups with some responsibility in our hands we should act like ones

And by the way, if you feel so offended by the decision, why didn't you turn to Microsoft about that?

Omer Akram (om26er) said : #9

>Palestine is not a country thus Jerusalem can't be its capital city

No matter how much contributions you make to the community you should know what you are writing. This statement is the most offensive statement from all your comments.

>And now my friend, with all do respect, please go to the community console, you like >arguing with no cause, what difference will it make?

They can ban you from using launchpad.

>Instead of trying to make our relationship better and putting aside our political views >(Like I >did) you became emotional an irrational, quit whining and start working, we have >a lot of >work to do together and political arguments won't lead us there

your comments seem like more harsh to me.

>And by the way, if you feel so offended by the decision, why didn't you turn to Microsoft >about that?

Because we dont like windows :)

Ahmed M. Araby (araby-ahmed) said : #10

@Yaron It's you now who is trying to mix all things together political+open source + ....
& what was your final proposal ? why didn't you turn to Microsoft !
I don't want to argue about this as it's useless it's 60 years old now
I simply suggest a simple answer to both sides
Israel and Palestine locale both (language and other stuff) can be available for Jerusalem
and you've said yourself (the 2 sides decide who Jerusalem belongs) although I don't think it's just a property
By the way there wasn't any ultimatums but suggestions
It's up to you now I think

Omer Akram (om26er) said : #11

My last words for everyone in this question. We are here in this community to work together and we should not be offended by this type of things.

Spirit of Ubuntu.

Yaron (sh-yaron) said : #12

So if we all agree that politics has nothing to do with that, what there is to argue about?

And by the way, Ramallah is the administrative capital of the Palestine authority

Legally if the Palestinians think they deserve a timezone they should ask for a temporary timezone for Ramallah, if Jerusalem will ever be Palestinian they can ask to make the appropriate change but for now Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and Ramallah is the capital of the Palestine Authority

Personally I think there is something misleading about this decision, Why do the Arab Israelis respect our timezone although they don't acknowledge Israel?
My other suggestion is to add another entry that would say: "Jerusalem (Palestine Authority)" this way no one will be offended

Now, if we all agree about everything and no one is angry with anybody lets get back to the bug we are trying to solve and start working :)

Usama Akkad (damascene) said : #13

>Look, this is a stupid argument

I agree this is a stupid argument. I hope we didn't have to start it at all.

>and I don't think that some wikipedia articles will change
>my positions

wikipedia articles? did you look at the sources?

>Despite the decision of the UN (To let the 2 sides decide who Jerusalem belongs to)
> most of the countries all over the world acknowledge Jerusalem as the capital of Israel
> and no open source discussion will change that

sorry for adding another article but I felt it related. you should read it
http://www.un.org/documents/sc/res/1980/scres80.htm
look at the document: Resolution 478: Territories occupied by Israel (20 Aug)

The Times Online Style Guide says:
Jerusalem l/c for east/west Jerusalem. Jerusalem must not be used as a metonym or variant for Israel. It is not internationally recognised as the Israeli capital, and its status is one of the central controversies in the Middle East. Although the Knesset, the Israeli parliament, sits in Jerusalem, most embassies are in Tel Aviv. Jerusalem is known in Arabic as al-Quds
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/tools_and_services/specials/style_guide/article986728.ece

see here also
http://www.science.co.il/embassies.asp

which makes your claims shocking

truly I didn't want to talk about the issue here after your first comment. but you did it again and stated abusive and untrue claims and you just want us to go along with it?

that what started this discussion in the first time. you know how Jerusalem is sensitive for sure and you chose to bring this subject up even it's not related to the RTL problem in terminal at all.

I really don't want to add any thing at all to this.

what I'm thinking of now is adding a comment to the original bug with the following:

###
@Yaron I agree on having the calender based on your location,
for example if some one chosen Jerusalem as a city he should have the choice to use Hebrew ,Gregorian or Islamic Hijri calenders or to have all of them.
(in the Islamic Hijri calender Friday is a holiday )
but this is not the subject of this bug.
###

do you agree, lauchpad people?

Yaron (sh-yaron) said : #14

>
> do you agree, lauchpad people?
>

You see where it all begins? instead of turning to me in person and telling
me you were hurt and you think I should be more sensitive you go and cry to
the launchpad janitors, this is so childish...

Usama, one more time, you want to add Ramallah as the capital of the
Palestinian Authority go ahead, you want to add another entry to the
timezone list with the name Jerusalem in it go ahead, you cry instead of
doing, you don't really care, you are just looking for justice

If I really thought the articles you present are truly unbiased I would take
that as a fact but even inside Israel we have Arab Israelis and Left Wingers
who claim that Israel is acting wrong, they do not enlist to the army
despite the Israeli law system and most of them are not even punished
The reason that Muslims do not take sides with Israel is that this step
might lead to a fatal consequences (As opposed to the radical Israeli Left
Wingers), in Israel you can go with a t-shirt that has the word ALLAH on it
in Arabic (Which is an Islamic symbol) and no one will hurt you, if I'll do
the same with a t-shirt that has a large Magen David on it in a Muslim
country I might get slaughtered

As a liberal country we don't encourage this kind of acts diplomatically and
even the police discourage this kind of act

This is why I don't take your things seriously even if it was a Jewish
Israeli who wrote them, we have the freedom to disagree with each other and
so we do, I don't even want to know what will happen if any one of you guys
will go against his local government (The guys who live in Muslim country
and take part in this discussion)

I hope I made my point and that from now on this will all be behind us, from
now on - friendship and open source only! politics are not allowed! :)

Usama Akkad (damascene) said : #15

https://bugs.launchpad.net/vte/+bug/263822/comments/18

your suggestion to have another Jerusalem was smart and tolerance thanks

alsadi (alsadi) said : #16

Yaron, it was a very cheap behavior to use LP for your agenda.
I guess you can find places other than LP and ubuntu's infrastructure.

There are so many ways of being polity and show respect to the diversity of this community.
this is not one of them.

> Look, this is a stupid argument
watch your key strokes. Just apologize for being offensive and stop calling people stupid.

any way I don't expect children killers to behave in a different way.

>> do you agree, lauchpad people?
> You see where it all begins? instead of turning to me in person and telling
me

it's no longer about someone like you showing his offensive attitude, it's about LP being used as a tool to show this offensive attitude and get away with it.

my next bug report about evolution or gedit, would contain sample text and screenshots with bad jokes about Jews. is this fine ? we don't do that because we have some moral values, we have respect. we expect it to be mutual.

> Palestine is not a country thus Jerusalem can't be its capital city
see!

this is not away we build a community of collaboration.

Yaron (sh-yaron) said : #17

@alsadi have you noticed I'm the only Israeli in here?
While you brought an entire army to attack me for being an Israeli I stood againt all off you by myself with major success

You and your friends are the ones who began all this attack, I did all I could to calm everything down while you kept arguing

I have never said anything to hurt the poor Palestinians, everything I said is true and I'm sorry you are not mature enough to accept that, Ramallah is the administrative capital of the Palestine Authority and Palestine is an authority just like I mentioned, no LP argument will change that and I don't think your hurt feeleing has anything to do with it, it's the reality and it's a real shame you can't live with that

About the baby killers, you better watch your keystrokes, Hammas is using children as human shields and we managed to prove that in the last war
Can you deny the fact that the Hammas rocket launchers and activists are hiding inside Hospitals and Schools?

My agenda was proven here pretty well and I was only trying to defend myself while you all were attacking, especially you alsadi that came after everything was cool between us and set the fire again

Now dear mister alsadi, if you think the Islam is so enlightened would you go out to the street with a shirt that has a large Magen David on it? I can tell you that it will make no difference if anyone of us will wear Islamic symbols, he will not be slaughtered and won't get hurt by anyone!
Further more, There are many Muslims (alongside Druzies and Arab Christians) that attend to the same College I attend to, Some of the Druzi guys are carrying their star symbol and we respect that and generally as a society we admire them for playing an active role in the Israeli society by serving the army and paying taxes, the Muslim Arabs who do not serve the army make their best to stand our of the crowd by wearing Keffiyah as a scarf, and even though we have some unsolved issues among us no one is hurt and usually we live in peace around each other (The last war was an exception though - the Israelis were attacked by Muslims that marched with the flags of Hizbollah inside the college, rude behaviour if you ask me)

If you have nothing better to say please keep your things to yourself, you have no idea how we treat Muslims and how liberal our country is as opposed to Muslim countries that show zero tolerance to Jedaism and Israelis, this is plain sad and if you really wanted to comment that bad you could have turned to me in private to discuss that

I don't think I should agree that Palestine is a country when arguing with a Muslim, if you like them so much there are many things you could have helped them with (like sending food and medicine) but you preffer that they'll die without any of these, money donations only help Hammas so donating money is not enough, in the meanwhile Hammas is only growing stronger making these people lives a living hell, once again - you talk much more than you do, but I guess you don't really care so what difference does it make, you only trying to win an argue that's all... really shameful

At this point I guess I rest my case, instead of turning fires of you keep lighting them, from now on everyone who has anything to say can turn to me in private, especially alsadi that has his own special way of detriorating our relationship (which is pretty good now if you ask me, and I guess Usama will agree that we signed our argument with many prolific insights, aren't we?)

Shame on you alsadi, very childish behaviour
Please you guys, if you don't have anything good to say keep to yourself or contact me in person, this entire conversation make my Karma look bad and this is the last thing I want to do

alsadi (alsadi) said : #18

> have you noticed I'm the only Israeli in here?

I'm sure there are many of them in LP, but they understand the difference between LP bug reports and facebook

> While you brought an entire **army**
I passed a metal detector on the login page before getting in here.
Have you passed it.

> I have never said anything to hurt the poor Palestinians,
really, well Osama told you it's not just about Palestinians.
You have offended all the Muslims (and some Christians)

> Ramallah is the administrative capital of the Palestine Authority and Palestine is an authority just like I mentioned, no LP argument will change that and I don't think your hurt feeleing has anything to do with it, it's the reality and it's a real shame you can't live with that

yes, once upon a time the apartheid system in South Africa was the legitimate regime, and the black people were officially inferior n*.

> About the baby killers, you better watch your keystrokes, Hammas is using children as human shields and we managed to prove that in the last war Can you deny the fact that the Hammas rocket launchers and activists are hiding inside Hospitals and Schools?

do you really expect me to use LP to reply on such silly excuses.
so you justify offending us in LP because of Hammas rockets.

Yaron (sh-yaron) said : #19

@alsadi Let me remind you once again, Usama could have spoken to me in person but instead he chose to make a deal out of it, and of course there are many Israelis in here but they all think the same way I do and don't fell like arguing about this issues, I was attacked personally so I had to defend myself
The reason you didn't want to continue this argument in private shows you chose a worse way than I did, so don't come and lecture me about acting childish or in an inappropriate way because you are the one who encourage it

Israel is far from apartheid, a country which I can't express my believe in is an apartheid country, why didn't you answer about the Magen David? Would you feel free to walk around with it in your country? Do you think I might stay alive if I do so?

Just to show you the difference - several days ago there was a big demonstration in Sachnin (Yaum el ard - Yom HaAdama - Land day) where many Arab Israelis demonstrate against the Israeli government, beside 2 youngsters that displayed the pictures of Ihad Murniya and Hassan Nasrallah nobody got arrested or hurt, and you come and tell me we are not tolerant against Arabs? Do you think Jewish people could have the same demonstration in public at any other Muslim country? This will be the last time I ask you that because you keep ignoring knowing that this is the truth

These are no excuses and I don't owe you anything, you will do whatever your country tells you and wants you to believe and if you go against the will of your government in public you would be dead by now, the Muslim propaganda is better than the Israeli one and is based on fear, I can go in public and arrange a big demonstration supporting the Arab Israelis or Palestinians and if I won't hurt the cops involved in any way (we're talking about a legitimate demonstration) it will even be legal one and I won't get hurt in any way, that doesn't make the Islam more enlightened it only looks better to the world press, stop eating what your government feeds you... oops sorry I forgot you could get killed for that... never mind

If you really want to I can post the link to the video showing the Hammas terrorists using kids as a human shield, do you?

alsadi (alsadi) said : #20

> Let me remind you once again, Usama could have spoken to me in person but instead he chose to make a deal out of it ... The reason **you** didn't want to continue this argument in private

me or Usama ?

> Israel is far from apartheid,

did I say that I want to argue about that in LP ? do you expect me to respond ?
if I did then I would be just like use, "abusing LP to demonstrate X or Y agenda"

this is the problem again. It's you using LP for such arguments.

> why didn't you answer about the Magen David?
I have not read it, and I'm not going to read it. LP is not facebook. You people own many brainwashing media and sites, just pick one and post there.

> ... Hassan Nasrallah ...
Hamas, then Nasrallah. Are you going to mention Ibn Ladin in your next post in LP ?

Yaron (sh-yaron) said : #21

@alsadi So we are getting back to where I started
We shouldn't have got to this argument at all
After we agreed on everything you came and put it back on fire
Then you complain about me attacking the Islam and tell me that you don't care what I say

My final conclusion is SHUT UP and I really don't understand why do you think you belong in this conversation in the first place, we managed just fine without your unnecessary commentary

Are there more wise guys out there or I can finally focus on development and solving bugs?

And by the way, this is a question, not a bug report and if you really find my propaganda offensive get out of here and you can even close your Launchpad account, nobody will miss you or your contribution anyways

Kind regards,
Yaron