Question #661830 “Inkscape Manual v/s Flossmanual- significant d...” : Questions : Inkscape

Revision history for this message

Hachmann (marenhachmann) said on 2017-12-16:

#1

Hi John,

so, the one on flossmanuals is not ready yet, and it has a different focus. It is a Beginners' guide, with a more practical orientation, and it is licenced CC-By. It was mainly written by a French Inkscape user and open source activist, and then translated to English and is currently in the process of being improved. When it is ready, I would like to see it added into the Help menu, but I have not received any feedback from Inkscape developers on this question yet, so I can't be sure. Contributors are welcome.

The one that is linked from the Help menu is a copyrighted book written by one of the Inkscape developers. It is a de facto official manual, but it is not *the* official manual, because there is none. At the time that the link was included in Inkscape, its author didn't even know about that inclusion. The book is focused on delivering all the technical details, and to be as comprehensive as possible. As far as I know, Tav welcomes help with keeping it up to date (in many parts, it's far behind current development), but I'm not sure if he would be allowed by his publisher to, for example, give you direct access to the book's source, for copyright reasons. You would have to ask him directly in which ways you can help.

I have long been thinking about initiating a third, open and collaborative full manual, but I don't have time or energy for that right now.

Hope that info helps with the decision,

Kind Regards,
Maren

Revision history for this message

John Morgan (john05) said on 2017-12-17:

#2

Thanks Maren. Yes that does answer my question and then creates a few more. (what a Bummer, LOL)

Hmm, let me throw out a few thoughts here, let me know what you think.

1. I like Open Source obviously because it's free but also because it is a collaborative of people which usually is better in my opinion. But if both primary manuals (the help manual and the Floss manual) are tide up in some sort of copyright issue, this creates a [conflict of interest] in my opinion. It locks up the freedom of the Open Source principle and stymies the development of Inkscape. A perfect example of myself wanting to get involved but am further hampered by a potential copyright issue and/or added hoops to jump through just to participate. (Not complaining, just voicing acknowledgement)

2. Although new to the graphics programs, I did check out a few other programs prior to Inkscape I.E. LibreCad, Gimp, Blender and one or two others and found Inkscape to be the easiest to learn. What I found easier is the Manual/instructions. Conveyance of the Instruction manual is what I believe to be the second most important part of a program, second only to the program itself. I believe that increasing the accuracy and quality of the Inkscape manual would have a great impact of its popularity and usability in the future.

3. Inkscape enabled me to create graphics/fonts/symbols for a book I am writing, and as a bonus, learned that it is a great program to create CNC files for a product I am prototyping. I'd love to participate in creating/developing an absolute Open Source/copyright free manual for Inkscape, yet like you, I don't have the time to take it on all by myself. Is there something we can do about this?

Thanks...

John...

Revision history for this message

Hachmann (marenhachmann) said on 2017-12-17:

#3

Hi John,

1.) Which copyright issue do you see with the flossmanuals version? It's licenced as Creative Commons with Attribution, so very permissive open source (more info: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/).

2.) I wholeheartedly agree - depending on which manual you mean, as the one from the help section is usually a bit too difficult to read for the non-technical folks. Thinking of it, there's even a second open manual available at flossmanuals: http://write.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/about-inkscape/ , but it's unmaintained - and the flossmanuals aka Booktype platform sucks, at least if you want an easy, automatable workflow. It's great for short books without pictures and special markup, but horrible if you need to change things in several places at once, or want interlinking, or your own markup, like info boxes, or keyboard shortcuts.

3.) Depends on your answer to 1.), and which kind of manual you are thinking of, a bit. It's probably not that much work to set things up on the technical side, and to invite contributors. But contributors want to be guided, initiated, cheered on, etc. and people who read the book like things to be a bit organized and also, if possible, with few errors in the contents.

So there's still a lot of reviewing in it (and I have this vision of developers being able to document their changes right there, so it needs versioning and all the bells and whistles of something like readthedocs - which makes it less accessible to the 'ordinary user'. That's why there's the flossmanuals entry level thing, too - for contributors who are non-technical, and for readers who are non-technical.)

Then, work tends to stick to the people who start something... and to just not be done, if the one(s) who started it is/are not available, at least in my open source community experience. So what can be done, from my view, is either a real and full commitment, or a search for someone who can do it instead - or wait for that someone to magically appear, of course :) But maybe there are other options, too - what are your ideas?

(What kind of book are you writing, if I may ask?)

Maren

Hi John,

1.) Which copyright issue do you see with the flossmanuals version? It's licenced as Creative Commons with Attribution, so very permissive open source (more info: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/).

2.) I wholeheartedly agree - depending on which manual you mean, as the one from the help section is usually a bit too difficult to read for the non-technical folks. Thinking of it, there's even a second open manual available at flossmanuals: http://write.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/about-inkscape/ , but it's unmaintained - and the flossmanuals aka Booktype platform sucks, at least if you want an easy, automatable workflow. It's great for short books without pictures and special markup, but horrible if you need to change things in several places at once, or want interlinking, or your own markup, like info boxes, or keyboard shortcuts.

3.) Depends on your answer to 1.), and which kind of manual you are thinking of, a bit. It's probably not that much work to set things up on the technical side, and to invite contributors. But contributors want to be guided, initiated, cheered on, etc. and people who read the book like things to be a bit organized and also, if possible, with few errors in the contents.

So there's still a lot of reviewing in it (and I have this vision of developers being able to document their changes right there, so it needs versioning and all the bells and whistles of something like readthedocs - which makes it less accessible to the 'ordinary user'. That's why there's the flossmanuals entry level thing, too - for contributors who are non-technical, and for readers who are non-technical.)

Then, work tends to stick to the people who start something... and to just not be done, if the one(s) who started it is/are not available, at least in my open source community experience. So what can be done, from my view, is either a real and full commitment, or a search for someone who can do it instead - or wait for that someone to magically appear, of course :) But maybe there are other options, too - what are your ideas?

(What kind of book are you writing, if I may ask?)

Maren

Revision history for this message

John Morgan (john05) said on 2017-12-17:

#4

Hi Maren,
I miss read your first reply to the first question...

.[When it is ready, I would
like to see it added into the Help menu, but I have not received any
feedback from Inkscape developers on this question yet, so I can't be
sure. Contributors are welcome.]

Nice! Great. This is a perfect place to start. Well, at least in my mind.
It opens up an avenue to improve/expand. The Flossmanuals version
[/start-with-inkscape/_draft/_v/2.9/why-use-inkscape] filled in a lot of
gaps from the help menu manual for me. I'd love to improve its accuracy
etc.

2. I agree, the help menu manual is difficult for the new beginner. But it
is established and yet copyrighted if I read your response correctly. This
is where an official [non-copyrighted, Open Source] manual needs to be
established and placed. I, for one, am not interested in contributing to a
manual that has a copyright for an Open Source Project. (counterproductive
if you ask me) If [Tav?] has copyrighted his version for the soul purpose
as to keep the primary information intact to prevent a* free-for-al*l that
will get the manual all mixed up, then I can understand his motive. But, if
for a future financial advantage, then no. Here then, [if Tav wants to
sincerely keep the manual free for the project] with the Help Menu Manual,
creating a smooth method of communication between the contributor(s) and
Tav, for updating/maintaining/improving/completing the sections is one
solution. Another would be, and the simplest is, if Tav would just release
his rights. He made a great start on the main manual but still needs
improvement/upkeep etc. My opinion only.

3a. As earlier above, Flossmanuals beginners manual, (
flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape), starting here from the beginning and
insuring that each step is accurate and complete would be interesting to
me. Fixing some of the minor wording flaws, add a few more words here and
there and add a few visuals for clarity etc. It's not that any one of the
examples in the manual is a good example or not, or if we should use
another example or more than one, it is whether each one is accurate and
clear. That is key in any product manual.

3b. Encouraging and guiding people is understandable. I don't have a
problem with that and prefer it over abuse or neglect.
3c. Being in the construction trade, one must be organized in thought as
well as in the physical world. I can be a little neurotic in that sense,
with the acceptance and understanding of human traits.
3d. Error free is the reason for my initial inquiry about all of this. It
is frustrating when instruction manuals have flaws. I've had to read so
many instruction manuals; building machines, buildings, products etc. and
had to put up with many flaws that wasted my time and stressed my patients
over the years. I'm not perfect or innocent in the matter, but what I am
good at are deductive reasoning, troubleshooting and analogy. And analogy
along with visual aids (I'm extremely visual) is key in any set of
instructions, manuals and presentations etc. This is where I can be
advantageous.

4. [ (and I have this vision of developers being able to document their
changes right there, so it needs versioning and all the bells and whistles
of something like readthedocs] I like your thoughts on that but, that is a
little too advanced for me at this point/stage. Although, having or
starting an actual official manual would greatly influence the outcome of
your ideas.

5. [Then, work tends to stick to the people who start something... and to
just not be done, if the one(s) who started it is/are not available] Yep, I
agree, also guilty at points in my life with this one.

My thoughts are this: My Work/Life balance gets jumbled from time to time,
so my commitment will vary, as everyone's does. I would like to slowly
clean up the Flossmanuals beginners section [
http://write.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape]

As stated earlier, start from the beginning and ensure its accuracy and
clarity one step at a time. Be able to send my proposal for the change to a
group of you to spend, say, 7 minutes looking over my thoughts of change
and send back an; approved or a rethink with suggestions attached. I am
talking for the most part, maybe just a sentence rewrite, or a simple
visual addition etc. A little bit at a time. Stuff that will only a few
minutes a week, or more depending on everyone's available time. But I would
like it to be set up that I am not reliant upon just one or two of you for
approval. I am thinking something like: send the proposed changes into a
group of say at least 10 of you, (maybe all of you) and out of those 10 or
so, that an approval is verified when at least 3 return with an approved
response. At this point, who ever does the actual changes, goes ahead and
does that (that is the programmers etc. whoever does those things) I then
move to the next sentence of the manual and the process starts all over
again. As the manual is updated, that there be an (Asterix or V-for
verified or checkmark) or something indicating to everyone, whether the
originator disappears or not, that the manual has been verified as *accurate
and clear* up until that point. That everyone can be quite comfortable with
the manual to that point. Some obvious symbol that everyone blatantly
recognizes. If someone disappears, that anyone can just continue from that
point on with out doubt that everything has been updated and verified from
that point back to the beginning by at least 3 of you (or what ever number
that everyone agrees upon)

Sort of an ISO process, that the process stays intact regardless who
participates continuously or not. Once it is complete, that the
contributors (that is you and the others) vote or something to have it
placed in help menu as an official *Beginners Guide* or something to that
nature.

Let me know what you think of that initial idea.

For the main official manual, I believe that the entire group of you should
at least make a decision about what to do about it. Either decide to start
creating a new official manual, or ask Tav? if he will give up his rights
or something. The issue isn't going away. :) Think about this scenario: Tav
sees an investment opportunity in another program. How do you get more
customers, pull the manual from Inkscape and watch the entire Inkscape
program and community scatter like ants. I don't know him, I'm sure he is a
great guy. I'm not insinuating that he isn't. Just a scenario that has
happened over and over across every industry.

As to the book! I would like to believe that the name might be..The
Principles of Life, or something of that nature. Think of all of the life
lessons that you had to learn the hard way, as principles. Not necessarily
as a book or a journal or diary, but as a set of principles of conclusion.
That when learned as a preteen or as a young teenager, can be beneficial to
your advantage in life. Not that life's lessons can be avoided, but the
individual damages will be minimized and reduced with this prior knowledge.
This required newly created symbols, glyphs or graphics that I had no
ability to make. After searching for someone for sometime to make them for
me, either the cost was too much or they weren't interested. Inkscape
enabled me to make all of them within about two weeks of learning the
program. Precisely, due to its manual. These types of programs are not easy
for me. So I was impressed with it and that inspired me to participate.

Let me know what you think.

John.......

On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 10:37 PM, Hachmann <
<email address hidden>> wrote:

> Your question #661830 on Inkscape changed:
> https://answers.launchpad.net/inkscape/+question/661830
>
> Hachmann posted a new comment:
> Hi John,
>
> 1.) Which copyright issue do you see with the flossmanuals version? It's
> licenced as Creative Commons with Attribution, so very permissive open
> source (more info: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/).
>
> 2.) I wholeheartedly agree - depending on which manual you mean, as the
> one from the help section is usually a bit too difficult to read for the
> non-technical folks. Thinking of it, there's even a second open manual
> available at flossmanuals: http://write.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/about-
> inkscape/ , but it's unmaintained - and the flossmanuals aka Booktype
> platform sucks, at least if you want an easy, automatable workflow. It's
> great for short books without pictures and special markup, but horrible
> if you need to change things in several places at once, or want
> interlinking, or your own markup, like info boxes, or keyboard
> shortcuts.
>
> 3.) Depends on your answer to 1.), and which kind of manual you are
> thinking of, a bit. It's probably not that much work to set things up on
> the technical side, and to invite contributors. But contributors want to
> be guided, initiated, cheered on, etc. and people who read the book like
> things to be a bit organized and also, if possible, with few errors in
> the contents.
>
> So there's still a lot of reviewing in it (and I have this vision of
> developers being able to document their changes right there, so it needs
> versioning and all the bells and whistles of something like readthedocs
> - which makes it less accessible to the 'ordinary user'. That's why
> there's the flossmanuals entry level thing, too - for contributors who
> are non-technical, and for readers who are non-technical.)
>
> Then, work tends to stick to the people who start something... and to
> just not be done, if the one(s) who started it is/are not available, at
> least in my open source community experience. So what can be done, from
> my view, is either a real and full commitment, or a search for someone
> who can do it instead - or wait for that someone to magically appear, of
> course :) But maybe there are other options, too - what are your ideas?
>
> (What kind of book are you writing, if I may ask?)
>
> Maren
>
> --
> You received this question notification because you asked the question.
>

--
Sincerely,

John Morgan
2586 Grosvenor Dr.
Cincinnati, Ohio 45231
<email address hidden>
513-825-8243

Hi Maren,
I miss read your first reply to the first question...

.[When it is ready, I would
like to see it added into the Help menu, but I have not received any
feedback from Inkscape developers on this question yet, so I can't be
sure. Contributors are welcome.]

Nice! Great. This is a perfect place to start. Well, at least in my mind.
It opens up an avenue to improve/expand. The Flossmanuals version
[/start-with-inkscape/_draft/_v/2.9/why-use-inkscape] filled in a lot of
gaps from the help menu manual for me. I'd love to improve its accuracy
etc.

2. I agree, the help menu manual is difficult for the new beginner. But it
is established and yet copyrighted if I read your response correctly. This
is where an official [non-copyrighted, Open Source] manual needs to be
established and placed. I, for one, am not interested in contributing to a
manual that has a copyright for an Open Source Project. (counterproductive
if you ask me) If [Tav?] has copyrighted his version for the soul purpose
as to keep the primary information intact to prevent a* free-for-al*l that
will get the manual all mixed up, then I can understand his motive. But, if
for a future financial advantage, then no. Here then, [if Tav wants to
sincerely keep the manual free for the project] with the Help Menu Manual,
creating a smooth method of communication between the contributor(s) and
Tav, for updating/maintaining/improving/completing the sections is one
solution. Another would be, and the simplest is, if Tav would just release
his rights. He made a great start on the main manual but still needs
improvement/upkeep etc. My opinion only.

3a. As earlier above, Flossmanuals beginners manual, (
flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape), starting here from the beginning and
insuring that each step is accurate and complete would be interesting to
me. Fixing some of the minor wording flaws, add a few more words here and
there and add a few visuals for clarity etc. It's not that any one of the
examples in the manual is a good example or not, or if we should use
another example or more than one, it is whether each one is accurate and
clear. That is key in any product manual.

3b. Encouraging and guiding people is understandable. I don't have a
problem with that and prefer it over abuse or neglect.
3c. Being in the construction trade, one must be organized in thought as
well as in the physical world. I can be a little neurotic in that sense,
with the acceptance and understanding of human traits.
3d. Error free is the reason for my initial inquiry about all of this. It
is frustrating when instruction manuals have flaws. I've had to read so
many instruction manuals; building machines, buildings, products etc. and
had to put up with many flaws that wasted my time and stressed my patients
over the years. I'm not perfect or innocent in the matter, but what I am
good at are deductive reasoning, troubleshooting and analogy. And analogy
along with visual aids (I'm extremely visual) is key in any set of
instructions, manuals and presentations etc. This is where I can be
advantageous.

4. [ (and I have this vision of developers being able to document their
changes right there, so it needs versioning and all the bells and whistles
of something like readthedocs] I like your thoughts on that but, that is a
little too advanced for me at this point/stage. Although, having or
starting an actual official manual would greatly influence the outcome of
your ideas.

5.  [Then, work tends to stick to the people who start something... and to
just not be done, if the one(s) who started it is/are not available] Yep, I
agree, also guilty at points in my life with this one.

My thoughts are this: My Work/Life balance gets jumbled from time to time,
so my commitment will vary, as everyone's does. I would like to slowly
clean up the Flossmanuals beginners section [
http://write.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape]

As stated earlier, start from the beginning and ensure its accuracy and
clarity one step at a time. Be able to send my proposal for the change to a
group of you to spend, say, 7 minutes looking over my thoughts of change
and send back an; approved or a rethink with suggestions attached. I am
talking for the most part, maybe just a sentence rewrite, or a simple
visual addition etc. A little bit at a time. Stuff that will only a few
minutes a week, or more depending on everyone's available time. But I would
like it to be set up that I am not reliant upon just one or two of you for
approval. I am thinking something like: send the proposed changes into a
group of say at least 10 of you, (maybe all of you)  and out of those 10 or
so, that an approval is verified when at least 3 return with an approved
response.  At this point, who ever does the actual changes, goes ahead and
does that (that is the programmers etc. whoever does those things) I then
move to the next sentence of the manual and the process starts all over
again. As the manual is updated, that there be an (Asterix or V-for
verified or checkmark) or something indicating to everyone, whether the
originator disappears or not, that the manual has been verified as *accurate
and clear* up until that point. That everyone can be quite comfortable with
the manual to that point. Some obvious symbol that everyone blatantly
recognizes. If someone disappears, that anyone can just continue from that
point on with out doubt that everything has been updated and verified from
that point back to the beginning by at least 3 of you (or what ever number
that everyone agrees upon)

Sort of an ISO process, that the process stays intact regardless who
participates continuously or not. Once it is complete, that the
contributors (that is you and the others) vote or something to have it
placed in help menu as an official *Beginners Guide* or something to that
nature.

Let me know what you think of that initial idea.

For the main official manual, I believe that the entire group of you should
at least make a decision about what to do about it. Either decide to start
creating a new official manual, or ask Tav? if he will give up his rights
or something. The issue isn't going away. :) Think about this scenario: Tav
sees an investment opportunity in another program. How do you get more
customers, pull the manual from Inkscape and watch the entire Inkscape
program and community scatter like ants. I don't know him, I'm sure he is a
great guy. I'm not insinuating that he isn't. Just a scenario that has
happened over and over across every industry.

As to the book! I would like to believe that the name might be..The
Principles of Life, or something of that nature. Think of all of the life
lessons that you had to learn the hard way, as principles. Not necessarily
as a book or a journal or diary, but as a set of principles of conclusion.
That when learned as a preteen or as a young teenager, can be beneficial to
your advantage in life. Not that life's lessons can be avoided, but the
individual damages will be minimized and reduced with this prior knowledge.
This required newly created symbols, glyphs or graphics that I had no
ability to make. After searching for someone for sometime to make them for
me, either the cost was too much or they weren't interested. Inkscape
enabled me to make all of them within about two weeks of learning the
program. Precisely, due to its manual. These types of programs are not easy
for me. So I was impressed with it and that inspired me to participate.

Let me know what you think.

John.......

On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 10:37 PM, Hachmann <
question661830@answers.launchpad.net> wrote:

> Your question #661830 on Inkscape changed:
> https://answers.launchpad.net/inkscape/+question/661830
>
> Hachmann posted a new comment:
> Hi John,
>
> 1.) Which copyright issue do you see with the flossmanuals version? It's
> licenced as Creative Commons with Attribution, so very permissive open
> source (more info: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/).
>
> 2.) I wholeheartedly agree - depending on which manual you mean, as the
> one from the help section is usually a bit too difficult to read for the
> non-technical folks. Thinking of it, there's even a second open manual
> available at flossmanuals: http://write.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/about-
> inkscape/ , but it's unmaintained - and the flossmanuals aka Booktype
> platform sucks, at least if you want an easy, automatable workflow. It's
> great for short books without pictures and special markup, but horrible
> if you need to change things in several places at once, or want
> interlinking, or your own markup, like info boxes, or keyboard
> shortcuts.
>
> 3.) Depends on your answer to 1.), and which kind of manual you are
> thinking of, a bit. It's probably not that much work to set things up on
> the technical side, and to invite contributors. But contributors want to
> be guided, initiated, cheered on, etc. and people who read the book like
> things to be a bit organized and also, if possible, with few errors in
> the contents.
>
> So there's still a lot of reviewing in it (and I have this vision of
> developers being able to document their changes right there, so it needs
> versioning and all the bells and whistles of something like readthedocs
> - which makes it less accessible to the 'ordinary user'. That's why
> there's the flossmanuals entry level thing, too - for contributors who
> are non-technical, and for readers who are non-technical.)
>
> Then, work tends to stick to the people who start something... and to
> just not be done, if the one(s) who started it is/are not available, at
> least in my open source community experience. So what can be done, from
> my view, is either a real and full commitment, or a search for someone
> who can do it instead - or wait for that someone to magically appear, of
> course :) But maybe there are other options, too - what are your ideas?
>
> (What kind of book are you writing, if I may ask?)
>
> Maren
>
> --
> You received this question notification because you asked the question.
>

-- 
Sincerely,

John Morgan
2586 Grosvenor Dr.
Cincinnati, Ohio 45231
johndwightmorgan@gmail.com
513-825-8243

Revision history for this message

Hachmann (marenhachmann) said on 2017-12-21:

#5

Okay, great, John!

Having a native speaker on our team for proofreading and patching up parts would be very helpful, indeed. Most of the proofreaders we have are not native speakers, and the translator, who translated from French to English, is actually German (me, that is). So I would expect there to be some weirdness in the expressions that are used.

You can find info on how to join, and on the purpose and style 'guideline' of the book here:
https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals

In the 'Issues' section, there's currently the main 'feedback area' that seems to work for the team.

As for editing permissions, registration at flossmanuals is currently closed due to spam. You need to either send an email to the flossmanuals discussion mailing list or contact the admin (Mick) directly. Don't forget to indicate your desired user name, else he'll just use your email address...
http://www.flossmanuals.org/contact

I understand your reservations about contributing to non-free documentation. It's also what has held me back in helping Tav updating the manual (Tav is an Inkscape board member and one of its main developers).
His book is copyrighted, because it was just that - a book, and one he wrote even before he became an Inkscape developer. His publisher has then acquired the rights, and Tav has negotiated with them to keep the book online, save a couple of tutorials that are limited to the print version. If someone wanted that book to be freed, they'd need to negotiate with the publisher, and probably buy it out. Not sure. I have talked with Tav about this, but I can't find the email now. So 'just release' would be cool, but isn't an option, unfortunately. I seem to remember he wrote that he has made sure that if something happened to him, the book would stay available.

A little bit at a time sounds great :)

As for the marking, there's a chapter status tag that is built-in into the flossmanuals platform. We can just use that.

I don't think we have a full 10 people there, but you might get input from 2 or 3, if you give them some time. I haven't been very pro-active in recruiting more, because I'd have had difficulties to manage them all.

Sounds like you have fun writing your book, and put a great deal of work and also learning for yourself into it (I mean, learning Inkscape and probably more). Are you going to self-publish?

Okay, great, John!

Having a native speaker on our team for proofreading and patching up parts would be very helpful, indeed. Most of the proofreaders we have are not native speakers, and the translator, who translated from French to English, is actually German (me, that is). So I would expect there to be some weirdness in the expressions that are used.

You can find info on how to join, and on the purpose and style 'guideline' of the book here:
https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals

In the 'Issues' section, there's currently the main 'feedback area' that seems to work for the team.

As for editing permissions, registration at flossmanuals is currently closed due to spam. You need to either send an email to the flossmanuals discussion mailing list or contact the admin (Mick) directly. Don't forget to indicate your desired user name, else he'll just use your email address...
http://www.flossmanuals.org/contact

I understand your reservations about contributing to non-free documentation. It's also what has held me back in helping Tav updating the manual (Tav is an Inkscape board member and one of its main developers).
His book is copyrighted, because it was just that - a book, and one he wrote even before he became an Inkscape developer. His publisher has then acquired the rights, and Tav has negotiated with them to keep the book online, save a couple of tutorials that are limited to the print version. If someone wanted that book to be freed, they'd need to negotiate with the publisher, and probably buy it out. Not sure. I have talked with Tav about this, but I can't find the email now. So 'just release' would be cool, but isn't an option, unfortunately. I seem to remember he wrote that he has made sure that if something happened to him, the book would stay available.

A little bit at a time sounds great :)

As for the marking, there's a chapter status tag that is built-in into the flossmanuals platform. We can just use that.

I don't think we have a full 10 people there, but you might get input from 2 or 3, if you give them some time. I haven't been very pro-active in recruiting more, because I'd have had difficulties to manage them all.

Sounds like you have fun writing your book, and put a great deal of work and also learning for yourself into it (I mean, learning Inkscape and probably more). Are you going to self-publish?

Revision history for this message

John Morgan (john05) said on 2017-12-21:

#6

Hi Maren,

Let me ask a quick question before we go any further.

In the Inkscape forum: inkscape in launcbpad that is, I usually just log in
and then go to the [answer page] to post a question and then search if
someone has answered it or not. What I noticed on the right side of the
page is a Blue List of names which I assumed to be a list of editors/forum
monitors etc. It looked like a list of about 15 - 20 or so. My concern is
that you mentioned in your last message that...."

* I don't think we have a full 10 people there, but you might get input
from 2 or 3, if you give them some time. I haven't been very pro-active in
recruiting more, because I'd have had difficulties to manage them all."*
I curious as to how many people are involved with the project? I assumed at
least 20.

Let me know and have a Happy Holiday,

John....

On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Hachmann <
<email address hidden>> wrote:

> Your question #661830 on Inkscape changed:
> https://answers.launchpad.net/inkscape/+question/661830
>
> Hachmann posted a new comment:
> Okay, great, John!
>
> Having a native speaker on our team for proofreading and patching up
> parts would be very helpful, indeed. Most of the proofreaders we have
> are not native speakers, and the translator, who translated from French
> to English, is actually German (me, that is). So I would expect there to
> be some weirdness in the expressions that are used.
>
> You can find info on how to join, and on the purpose and style 'guideline'
> of the book here:
> https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals
>
> In the 'Issues' section, there's currently the main 'feedback area' that
> seems to work for the team.
>
> As for editing permissions, registration at flossmanuals is currently
> closed due to spam. You need to either send an email to the flossmanuals
> discussion mailing list or contact the admin (Mick) directly. Don't forget
> to indicate your desired user name, else he'll just use your email
> address...
> http://www.flossmanuals.org/contact
>
> I understand your reservations about contributing to non-free
> documentation. It's also what has held me back in helping Tav updating the
> manual (Tav is an Inkscape board member and one of its main developers).
> His book is copyrighted, because it was just that - a book, and one he
> wrote even before he became an Inkscape developer. His publisher has then
> acquired the rights, and Tav has negotiated with them to keep the book
> online, save a couple of tutorials that are limited to the print version.
> If someone wanted that book to be freed, they'd need to negotiate with the
> publisher, and probably buy it out. Not sure. I have talked with Tav about
> this, but I can't find the email now. So 'just release' would be cool, but
> isn't an option, unfortunately. I seem to remember he wrote that he has
> made sure that if something happened to him, the book would stay available.
>
> A little bit at a time sounds great :)
>
> As for the marking, there's a chapter status tag that is built-in into
> the flossmanuals platform. We can just use that.
>
> I don't think we have a full 10 people there, but you might get input
> from 2 or 3, if you give them some time. I haven't been very pro-active
> in recruiting more, because I'd have had difficulties to manage them
> all.
>
> Sounds like you have fun writing your book, and put a great deal of work
> and also learning for yourself into it (I mean, learning Inkscape and
> probably more). Are you going to self-publish?
>
> --
> You received this question notification because you asked the question.
>

--
Sincerely,

John Morgan
2586 Grosvenor Dr.
Cincinnati, Ohio 45231
<email address hidden>
513-825-8243

Hi Maren,

Let me ask a quick question before we go any further.

In the Inkscape forum: inkscape in launcbpad that is, I usually just log in
and then go to the [answer page] to post a question and then search if
someone has answered it or not. What I noticed on the right side of the
page is a Blue List of names which I assumed to be a list of editors/forum
monitors etc. It looked like a list of about 15 - 20 or so. My concern is
that you mentioned in your last message that...."

* I don't think we have a full 10 people there, but you might get input
from 2 or 3, if you give them some time. I haven't been very pro-active in
recruiting more, because I'd have had difficulties to manage them all."*
I curious as to how many people are involved with the project? I assumed at
least 20.

Let me know and have a Happy Holiday,

John....

On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Hachmann <
question661830@answers.launchpad.net> wrote:

> Your question #661830 on Inkscape changed:
> https://answers.launchpad.net/inkscape/+question/661830
>
> Hachmann posted a new comment:
> Okay, great, John!
>
> Having a native speaker on our team for proofreading and patching up
> parts would be very helpful, indeed. Most of the proofreaders we have
> are not native speakers, and the translator, who translated from French
> to English, is actually German (me, that is). So I would expect there to
> be some weirdness in the expressions that are used.
>
> You can find info on how to join, and on the purpose and style 'guideline'
> of the book here:
> https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals
>
> In the 'Issues' section, there's currently the main 'feedback area' that
> seems to work for the team.
>
> As for editing permissions, registration at flossmanuals is currently
> closed due to spam. You need to either send an email to the flossmanuals
> discussion mailing list or contact the admin (Mick) directly. Don't forget
> to indicate your desired user name, else he'll just use your email
> address...
> http://www.flossmanuals.org/contact
>
> I understand your reservations about contributing to non-free
> documentation. It's also what has held me back in helping Tav updating the
> manual (Tav is an Inkscape board member and one of its main developers).
> His book is copyrighted, because it was just that - a book, and one he
> wrote even before he became an Inkscape developer. His publisher has then
> acquired the rights, and Tav has negotiated with them to keep the book
> online, save a couple of tutorials that are limited to the print version.
> If someone wanted that book to be freed, they'd need to negotiate with the
> publisher, and probably buy it out. Not sure. I have talked with Tav about
> this, but I can't find the email now. So 'just release' would be cool, but
> isn't an option, unfortunately. I seem to remember he wrote that he has
> made sure that if something happened to him, the book would stay available.
>
> A little bit at a time sounds great :)
>
> As for the marking, there's a chapter status tag that is built-in into
> the flossmanuals platform. We can just use that.
>
> I don't think we have a full 10 people there, but you might get input
> from 2 or 3, if you give them some time. I haven't been very pro-active
> in recruiting more, because I'd have had difficulties to manage them
> all.
>
> Sounds like you have fun writing your book, and put a great deal of work
> and also learning for yourself into it (I mean, learning Inkscape and
> probably more). Are you going to self-publish?
>
> --
> You received this question notification because you asked the question.
>

-- 
Sincerely,

John Morgan
2586 Grosvenor Dr.
Cincinnati, Ohio 45231
johndwightmorgan@gmail.com
513-825-8243

Revision history for this message

Hachmann (marenhachmann) said on 2017-12-22:

#7

Hi John,

almost all of the profiles linked here in the answers section are fake accounts from spammers that haven't been properly cleaned out by launchpad staff. There are ~ three people here who answer user questions at launchpad, two of them regularly.

That said, the project is alive in many places, and there are probably more than a hundred persons I've met via the project over the course of the years:

Developers, which you'll see at gitlab or on the mailing lists:
https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape/settings/members

Users who help other users on the forums:
http://www.inkscapeforum.com/
http://forum.inkscapecommunity.com/index.php?action=forum
(and others, Italian forum, French forum, German forum,...)

People who help other people via social media:
https://inkscape.org/en/community/

Other teams:
https://inkscape.org/en/teams/

and then, all the people who write extensions for Inkscape, give workshops, write books, publish art ... etc. without necessarily telling other project members about it

and then, of course, the little manual team, consisting of the people who reply here to the issues:
https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals/issues
People tend to dwindle away - I think there were about 10 people interested in helping out, but most of them just cannot regularly invest time into it, so yes, if you're lucky, you'll get feedback from 2 or 3 (mostly, it'll be me, though).

Don't expect that developers - or the whole community - will participate in manual-writing. Everyone has their specialty, and devs specialize in writing code, mostly, while translators translate, and bug managers manage bugs, and social media peeps are on social media, etc. etc. Some people will be very vocal about how they want to help, and require lots of feedback, but then nothing will ever happen :) It's how things are in a volunteer project.

How does the number of other contributors influence your decision to help?

Happy Holidays to you, too,
Maren

Hi John,

almost all of the profiles linked here in the answers section are fake accounts from spammers that haven't been properly cleaned out by launchpad staff. There are ~ three people here who answer user questions at launchpad, two of them regularly.

That said, the project is alive in many places, and there are probably more than a hundred persons I've met via the project over the course of the years:

Developers, which you'll see at gitlab or on the mailing lists:
https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape/settings/members

Users who help other users on the forums:
http://www.inkscapeforum.com/
http://forum.inkscapecommunity.com/index.php?action=forum
(and others, Italian forum, French forum, German forum,...)

People who help other people via social media:
https://inkscape.org/en/community/

Other teams:
https://inkscape.org/en/teams/

and then, all the people who write extensions for Inkscape, give workshops, write books, publish art ... etc. without necessarily telling other project members about it

and then, of course, the little manual team, consisting of the people who reply here to the issues:
https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals/issues
People tend to dwindle away - I think there were about 10 people interested in helping out, but most of them just cannot regularly invest time into it, so yes, if you're lucky, you'll get feedback from 2 or 3 (mostly, it'll be me, though).

Don't expect that developers - or the whole community - will participate in manual-writing. Everyone has their specialty, and devs specialize in writing code, mostly, while translators translate, and bug managers manage bugs, and social media peeps are on social media, etc. etc. Some people will be very vocal about how they want to help, and require lots of feedback, but then nothing will ever happen :) It's how things are in a volunteer project.

How does the number of other contributors influence your decision to help?

Happy Holidays to you, too,
 Maren

Revision history for this message

John Morgan (john05) said on 2017-12-22:

#8

Hi Maren,

well that clears a lot up. I'll have to take a few days to wrap my head
around all of this. The project is pretty much spread out Right now I am
in information overload. I am not a techy really and that slows my learning
in all of this. In response to your question about the contributors, I just
figured if there wasn't many, it would make it more difficult to achieve
and also wanted some sort of idea of who is involved.

I'll go ahead and close out this forum ticket as solved and then take the
next few days learning the instructions etc. on the floss forum.

Thanks and have a great Holiday,

John.........

On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 9:17 AM, Hachmann <
<email address hidden>> wrote:

> Your question #661830 on Inkscape changed:
> https://answers.launchpad.net/inkscape/+question/661830
>
> Hachmann posted a new comment:
> Hi John,
>
> almost all of the profiles linked here in the answers section are fake
> accounts from spammers that haven't been properly cleaned out by
> launchpad staff. There are ~ three people here who answer user questions
> at launchpad, two of them regularly.
>
> That said, the project is alive in many places, and there are probably
> more than a hundred persons I've met via the project over the course of
> the years:
>
> Developers, which you'll see at gitlab or on the mailing lists:
> https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape/settings/members
>
> Users who help other users on the forums:
> http://www.inkscapeforum.com/
> http://forum.inkscapecommunity.com/index.php?action=forum
> (and others, Italian forum, French forum, German forum,...)
>
> People who help other people via social media:
> https://inkscape.org/en/community/
>
> Other teams:
> https://inkscape.org/en/teams/
>
> and then, all the people who write extensions for Inkscape, give
> workshops, write books, publish art ... etc. without necessarily telling
> other project members about it
>
> and then, of course, the little manual team, consisting of the people who
> reply here to the issues:
> https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals/issues
> People tend to dwindle away - I think there were about 10 people
> interested in helping out, but most of them just cannot regularly invest
> time into it, so yes, if you're lucky, you'll get feedback from 2 or 3
> (mostly, it'll be me, though).
>
> Don't expect that developers - or the whole community - will participate
> in manual-writing. Everyone has their specialty, and devs specialize in
> writing code, mostly, while translators translate, and bug managers
> manage bugs, and social media peeps are on social media, etc. etc. Some
> people will be very vocal about how they want to help, and require lots
> of feedback, but then nothing will ever happen :) It's how things are in
> a volunteer project.
>
> How does the number of other contributors influence your decision to
> help?
>
> Happy Holidays to you, too,
> Maren
>
> --
> You received this question notification because you asked the question.
>

--
Sincerely,

John Morgan
2586 Grosvenor Dr.
Cincinnati, Ohio 45231
U.S.A.
<email address hidden>
513-825-8243

Hi Maren,

well that clears a lot up. I'll have to take a few days to wrap my head
around all of this. The project is pretty much spread out  Right now I am
in information overload. I am not a techy really and that slows my learning
in all of this. In response to your question about the contributors, I just
figured if there wasn't many, it would make it more difficult to achieve
and also wanted some sort of idea of who is involved.

I'll go ahead and close out this forum ticket as solved and then take the
next few days learning the instructions etc. on the floss forum.

Thanks and have a great Holiday,

John.........

On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 9:17 AM, Hachmann <
question661830@answers.launchpad.net> wrote:

> Your question #661830 on Inkscape changed:
> https://answers.launchpad.net/inkscape/+question/661830
>
> Hachmann posted a new comment:
> Hi John,
>
> almost all of the profiles linked here in the answers section are fake
> accounts from spammers that haven't been properly cleaned out by
> launchpad staff. There are ~ three people here who answer user questions
> at launchpad, two of them regularly.
>
> That said, the project is alive in many places, and there are probably
> more than a hundred persons I've met via the project over the course of
> the years:
>
> Developers, which you'll see at gitlab or on the mailing lists:
> https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape/settings/members
>
> Users who help other users on the forums:
> http://www.inkscapeforum.com/
> http://forum.inkscapecommunity.com/index.php?action=forum
> (and others, Italian forum, French forum, German forum,...)
>
> People who help other people via social media:
> https://inkscape.org/en/community/
>
> Other teams:
> https://inkscape.org/en/teams/
>
> and then, all the people who write extensions for Inkscape, give
> workshops, write books, publish art ... etc. without necessarily telling
> other project members about it
>
> and then, of course, the little manual team, consisting of the people who
> reply here to the issues:
> https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals/issues
> People tend to dwindle away - I think there were about 10 people
> interested in helping out, but most of them just cannot regularly invest
> time into it, so yes, if you're lucky, you'll get feedback from 2 or 3
> (mostly, it'll be me, though).
>
> Don't expect that developers - or the whole community - will participate
> in manual-writing. Everyone has their specialty, and devs specialize in
> writing code, mostly, while translators translate, and bug managers
> manage bugs, and social media peeps are on social media, etc. etc. Some
> people will be very vocal about how they want to help, and require lots
> of feedback, but then nothing will ever happen :) It's how things are in
> a volunteer project.
>
> How does the number of other contributors influence your decision to
> help?
>
> Happy Holidays to you, too,
>  Maren
>
> --
> You received this question notification because you asked the question.
>

-- 
Sincerely,

John Morgan
2586 Grosvenor Dr.
Cincinnati, Ohio 45231
U.S.A.
johndwightmorgan@gmail.com
513-825-8243

Revision history for this message

John Morgan (john05) said on 2017-12-23:

#9

Thanks Hachmann, that solved my question.

Revision history for this message

Hachmann (marenhachmann) said on 2017-12-24:

#10

Yeah, I know it's a lot :) The Inkscape project's structure is mostly grown, not planned, and is due to history, personal preferences, and some very specific needs and hurdles. But no worries, as long as one is able to ask one's way around, there will always be people who can help.

Can you let us know here:
https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals/issues/7

when you're ready to dive in?

Revision history for this message

John Morgan (john05) said on 2017-12-25:

#11

I don't understand why the manual is located at the Flossmanuals.net site
and it appears that the collaboration is at the Gitlab.com site.

Let me know if you can help with this.

Cheers!

On Sat, Dec 23, 2017 at 8:43 PM, Hachmann <
<email address hidden>> wrote:

> Your question #661830 on Inkscape changed:
> https://answers.launchpad.net/inkscape/+question/661830
>
> Hachmann posted a new comment:
> Yeah, I know it's a lot :) The Inkscape project's structure is mostly
> grown, not planned, and is due to history, personal preferences, and
> some very specific needs and hurdles. But no worries, as long as one is
> able to ask one's way around, there will always be people who can help.
>
> Can you let us know here:
> https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals/issues/7
>
> when you're ready to dive in?
>
> --
> You received this question notification because you asked the question.
>

--
Sincerely,

John Morgan
2586 Grosvenor Dr.
Cincinnati, Ohio 45231
U.S.A.
<email address hidden>
513-825-8243

Revision history for this message

Hachmann (marenhachmann) said on 2017-12-26:

#12

It's explained here: https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals/blob/master/README.md

See you on gitlab! (Glad account creation worked!)

Revision history for this message

John Morgan (john05) said on 2017-12-30:

#13

Hi Hachmann,

Sorry about the timeline for getting back with you. Job interviews this
week and those type of meetings bother me. Anyway. I got onto Gitlab and
became confused. So far, I have 4 new websites trying to learn how to help.
Well, I found www.gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape.. and at that point I am
lost.

Personally, I'd rather be able to call someone for a quick 5 minute
explanation while being online. That would make everything so much faster.
But until then, If you could walk me through all of this, that would help
me out a lot.

Let me know

John........

On Tue, Dec 26, 2017 at 6:03 PM, Hachmann <
<email address hidden>> wrote:

> Your question #661830 on Inkscape changed:
> https://answers.launchpad.net/inkscape/+question/661830
>
> Hachmann posted a new comment:
> It's explained here: https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-
> docs/manuals/blob/master/README.md
>
> See you on gitlab! (Glad account creation worked!)
>
> --
> You received this question notification because you asked the question.
>

--
Sincerely,

John Morgan
2586 Grosvenor Dr.
Cincinnati, Ohio 45231
U.S.A.
<email address hidden>
513-825-8243

Revision history for this message

Hachmann (marenhachmann) said on 2017-12-31:

#14

Hi John,

yeah, as I said, Inkscape is spread out a bit, and the flossmanuals platform isn't too great - it's not very useful to have discussions there, they are not saved - and they are not public, which is a huge, huge drawback.

So these are the short instructions:

Please read https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals/blob/master/README.md if you haven't yet, then visit the manual at http://write.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/_draft/why-use-inkscape/ , take a look at a chapter of your choice, then post your feedback at https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals/issues/7 .

Editing is not a priority yet, we'll get there some time.

I cannot talk with you on the phone, but I can offer to meet you in a chat room - https://inkscape.org/en/community/discussion/ (sorry, I know that would be another place where you'd need an account, unless you know how to use freenet, or have an IRC client installed already). Let me know if that would be useful to you.
Please take into account that I'm in central Europe, so I'm six hours ahead of you - we'd need to find a time that suits us both.

Wishing you good luck for those job interviews and the jobs :)

Maren

Inkscape

Inkscape Manual v/s Flossmanual- significant difference?

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Inkscape Manual v/s Flossmanual- significant difference?

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