Lucid Live CD fails to display boot options w/o user action

I just happened to think that I may be mistaken about using Alt + SysReq + B to reboot from the black screen, it may well have been Ctrl + Alt + Del. I'll try that again at some point in my testing and clarify.

Also hardware info if helpful:

VIA PC2500 Mainboard
VIA Esther C7 CPU 1500MHz
System Memory 2GB DIMM
VT8233/A/8235/8237 AC97 Audio Controller
CN700/P4M800 Pro/P4M800 CE/VN800 [S3 UniChrome Pro] Graphics

This was an intentional change at the request of SABDFL and the design
team, rather than a bug. You can actually press any key (hence the
keyboard icon); it doesn't have to be Escape.

Perhaps you could file your X problem as a separate bug, unless you want
to consider it the only remaining part of this bug? It is not clear
what is going on here, especially since you have no way to get logs; I
don't think it's related to this boot workflow change.

Thanks Colin. I had wondered if this might be a design change. I assume there will be some mention of this in the release notes so those of us expecting to just see a menu know what to expect?

I'm a bit confused about the "X issue", it seems odd that I only get the black screen if I've chosen to view the menu and then selected "Try without changes". If I take no action it always boots to the Live Desktop flawlessly.

At this point I wouldn't worry about it unless this is confirmed by others. I actually have another bug report filed regarding xserver-xorg-video-openchrome so I might consider adding this info to that report.

In the meanwhile I'll mark this invalid but leave it public. Thanks again.

We should mention this in the release notes, yes. I'll open a bug task.

The obvious difference between "Try" and booting straight through is
that the latter uses a custom display manager implementation rather than
gdm. I wonder if we're failing to handle interaction with plymouth
correctly?

One other thing I notice in the process of doing my testing is how quickly I must press a key to bring up the boot menu. I think anything past 5 seconds the option is gone.

Is it possible that something loads too quickly, that is something loads so quickly that another "component" doesn't have time to "catch up"?

I don't know, I'm just an end user with no tech knowledge at all.

Well I'm unsure what changed but I've tried the latest i386 Live CD twice and no longer get that behavior. That is, I can boot to the Live Desktop just fine after accessing the boot menu.

I guess the devs just fix things sometimes ;^)

Thanks for re-testing. We did quite a bit of work on Plymouth (the splash screen with the dots that shows between the CD boot loader and X) and Ubiquity's interaction with it over the last few days, and I had a suspicion that all of that might well address this bug. Closing the ubiquity task now, then.

The release notes task remains open to document the initial keypress thing.

On your "five seconds" comment - no need to invoke questions of multiple components and their load time, because five seconds is simply the timeout prescribed by the design team for the initial screen ...

Documented at <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidLynx/ReleaseNotes#Boot%20options%20hidden%20by%20default%20on%20Desktop%20and%20Netbook%20CDs>:

The Ubuntu 10.04 LTS Desktop and Netbook CDs feature a new boot interface that is noninteractive by default. To configure advanced boot options, press any key at the first boot screen.

All I can say is that this is not an improvement at all.

Folks need an obvious way to check the disk for defects.

The old menu was easy for me, as a noob, to figure out when I came in on 8.04. I think this would have run me off.

This "noninteractiveL" crap is for things like MS not Linux.

This is just silly. Even experienced ubuntu users are not finding this, how could any novice magically figure out he has to tap a key at some point to do "advanced" things like testing his cd for defects? Why not have some text there "press any key now to access boot optons" or an "advanced" button in the menu ? This is no progress, this is windows-like silliness ( F6/F8 hidden menu's).

Who do we complain to, to have this changed?

With the live cd being multilingual the keyboard icon needs to be bigger or better defined with maybe an arrow to indicate press any key.

Tom,
Please review the code of conduct (http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct) before making any further comments.

I don't disagree that this is a desirable outcome, however I don't think Ubuntu us yet at a place where we can assume that we are flawless enough to get to a desktop without a fallback. At least for the pre-RC development releases it would be nice to have some kind of more obvious "go to safe mode and report the system as not working in non-interactive mode". At the very least one could wish for something a bit more obvious than the current logo thing or some clear documentation.

I recently tried this with my girlfriend and she had no end of trouble getting Ubuntu to go to a working desktop.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=9185496&postcount=47

10.04 is out for an hour or so, and here is the first user who is hit by this:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=9195336#post9195336

Surprisingly he recognizes the icon as a keyboard symbol ( I really did not), unsurprisingly, he has no clue he can press a key to get in to safe graphics mode. I expect to lose a fair amount of time posting responses to posts like that, I would love for the person who came up with that design to reply to all those posts :)

NO! It's not out! We're still doing iso testing, but this has been argued to death!

The emblems exist in the same way that road signs have become "international" so anyone from any country can drive in any other country.

IMO this is not an issue and it's certainly not worth a launchpad post!

It's a well documented change in behavior.

Apologies to P4man, it seems while you're doing testing that you can't keep up with decisions!

Like the left hand never knows what the right hand is doing!

   I discovered this bug exists from at least 9.04 through 10.04 and is a real problem to a new user, as it is to me an old user. I tried 10.04 yesterday and on one computer I found hitting esc worked and on my laptop it does not work. I had a real problem finding a way to TEST the cd-rom! It showed up suddenly and I did test the 10.04 cd-rom and it is perfect.

   I agree to the select language first approach, but it should be the first panel. It will force you to make that selection. The second panel then should be the old reliable first panel where you select to test things or install the system.

The non interactive Live CD startup is a problem.
I regularly display to groups of non Ubuntu users and the old menu system was intuitive and self explanatory.

Now I have to tell them to maybe press a key, or maybe not press a key, and if they do not press a key just in time, then they have to actually read stuff (Windows users?) and choose a particular button. If they get the wrong button their life suddenly gets complicated.

Really bad bad development.

Unfortunately it comes at a time when various opinions are being published that online banking is only safe if (Windows users) use a Ubuntu Live CD to do banking. Just the wrong time to introduce a more complicated way of using an Ubutu Live CD!

for example:
http://blogs.computerworld.com/15815/can_ubuntu_save_online_banking

I display for Ubuntu and FOSS at regular monthly computer fairs locally and my target audience is Windows users or newcomers to Ubuntu. The Live CD is strategically crucial in that user environment. It is now obvious that the non interactive start for the Lucid Live CD is a marketing disaster. Several people approached me about their 'failed' CDs when in fact the CDs were ok, they just did not work in a simple way. Ubuntu Lucid Live CD is not Linux for human beings, it is Linux fro martians. This is the first time in three years of displays that I have had to make real excuses for Ubuntu. This is most definitely NOT the way to fix Bug#1.
A live CD is a standard bearer of the Distribution, it is at the very sharp end of any marketing that is done in the real world. It should work in a most convenient way possible, and because it is a snapshot frozen in time, it should work well (note). Lucid Live CD is letting us down, change it back for goodness sakes!

Note: the live CD menu item Install Ubuntu seems not to work also. This is LTS? Do we actually want new users?

(goes into a corner and weeps)

Well, if Colin is still reading this and I'd bet so ;^) All we've really done is move the "interactive" part further down the line. You still end up having to select whether to just run Ubuntu or install Ubuntu. Sadly you're too far into the boot cycle by then to edit the boot parameters.

I've otherwise found Lucid to be totally worthy of a Live USB, that is quite stable, but I'm considering a remaster beginning with an Lubuntu image to avoid this "new feature".

Even once you know about the new behavior the option to press any key passes so quickly that an incoming phone call or some other untimely distraction can result in an otherwise unnecessary reboot.

I posted a "question" at Ayatana since this involves a design change:

https://answers.launchpad.net/ayatana-ubuntu/+question/110648

Hopefully I did OK. Some really great minds gather there and maybe they'll have a good answer :^)

NOTE: I'm not among the great minds.

Erick, it's true that the first prompt happens when it's too late to edit the boot parameters. However, it's important to recognize that editing boot options is *not* the common case: for the vast majority of users, install vs. try is the first selection they should need to make, and they normally won't even *know* if other boot options are needed until they've first tried to boot with the default options. So while I'm personally rather dissatisfied with the solution that's been implemented to hide the language selector by default, I think the comments here significantly exaggerate the severity of the problems that result, and I don't think it's necessary or appropriate to revisit this in 10.04. Please work with the design team instead to improve our live CD's boot behavior for maverick.

> Note: the live CD menu item Install Ubuntu seems not to work also. This
> is LTS? Do we actually want new users?

It definitely does. If it's not working for you, file a separate bug report and provide our developers the information they'll need in order to resolve that bug.

@ steve
'So while I'm personally rather dissatisfied with the solution that's been implemented to hide the language selector by default, I think the comments here significantly exaggerate the severity of the problems that result, and I don't think it's necessary or appropriate to revisit this in 10.04.'

I very much disagree, it is a very significant disadvantage, and I sincerely hope that it will be changed immediately. I speak as someone who has displayed in Windows based computer fair environments, for a full day each month regularly for three years, distributing an average of 15 live (Ubuntu) CDs per day to newcomers who ask and talking to a lot more. I also give regular talks and demonstrations to (Windows) computer clubs. I am not a geek nor a developer, I am at the sharp end of marketing, and please make no mistake, any slightest complication or lack of simplicity with the running of the Live CD is bad news.

@steve
'It definitely does. If it's not working for you, file a separate bug'
It is in the 10.04 release notes.
Bug #567899 includes it. It was in RC but was not able to be fixed in time.

It is only important because it has a magnified impact on new comers who have been fed for many years on a diet of Windows is perfect and Linux is unreliable from you know who. As I say in another comment here I see a unique side of Ubuntu 'marketing' .

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 11:48:22AM -0000, candtalan wrote:
> @steve
> 'It definitely does. If it's not working for you, file a separate bug'
> It is in the 10.04 release notes.

No, you asserted that the menu item didn't *work*. That release note is
about a spurious error message that does not block the use of the installer.

--
Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer http://www.debian.org/
<email address hidden> <email address hidden>

@ steve
Thank you for the comment.

I said
'live CD menu item Install' which is true, now I check - in two machines out of five for me, and is repeatable.
The installation stops, I take that to mean 'not work'.

Perhaps I see a different problem?

The error window has a 'OK' button, and accepting this proceeds to a live session which has an install icon which can be used. However, the then install process then will require more RAM than the original menu choice.

Incidentally
I had an email support request only this morning from a windows user who has known of ubuntu for two years, took a live CD from me recently, and just used it, and has seen an error which he now believes is due to not enough RAM. Whether this correct or not, I make the point again that the Live CD is our front window, and first impressions are crucial.

@ Steve, thanks for your reply. You said "install vs. try is the first selection they should need to make".

I've always recommended that everyone select "Check CD for defects" before proceeding with an installation. And, as I said, even though I'm aware of the new behavior I've sometimes missed the opportunity to press a key and display the "options" due to some unexpected interruption. I swear it must be a 3 to 5 second window, and I'm familiar enough with most of the machines I work on to know what (if any) boot parameters to edit.

Still, I agree that it's not an incredibly critical flaw, hardly something that would have sent me distro-hopping even when I was new to Ubuntu. IMHO a minor nuisance at worst :^)

At risk of being a nuisance you said, "Please work with the design team instead to improve our live CD's boot behavior for maverick." Beyond posting my question at Ayatana what's the best method to approach the design team?

The only dumb question is the one never asked, eh?

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 01:27:39PM -0000, Erick Brunzell wrote:
> At risk of being a nuisance you said, "Please work with the design team
> instead to improve our live CD's boot behavior for maverick." Beyond
> posting my question at Ayatana what's the best method to approach the
> design team?

Posting the question to the Ayatana list is, TTBOMK, the best method.

Cheers,
--
Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer http://www.debian.org/
<email address hidden> <email address hidden>

Thanks Steve, converting that "question" into a new message on the "list" has at least garnered the attention of Mark Shuttleworth : "Michael Forrest, cc'd, is the right person to chat with about the install CD experience. Michael, could you reply on-list for everyone's benefit?"

I take that as a good thing even if I prove to be ineffective ;^)

@ candtalan, This would be your best opportunity to effect some change, so please have a look here if you're not a member of the Ayatana team:

https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

and here:

https://launchpad.net/~ayatana

Or, if you have any trouble navigating that, click on my Launchpad username and PM me.

RE: Boot options hidden by default on Desktop and Netbook CDs
Hi guys,
Wanted to spread Ubuntu Lucid around family and friends so I downloaded the desktop and Netbook ISOs (01/06/10), thought I'd test the ISO before burning a dozen or so CDs. I was not happy with the result. There was not the usual initial menu options as with previous releases. Booting from the live CDs they went all the way through to an error message that said “ The installer has encountered and unrecoverable error”. In my opinion this is not a good user experience and so is not good for Ubuntu. I believe this should be urgently fixed.

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/Dave.Hills.2009/RecentlyUpdated#5478300892618788130